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Posts from Balance in HotA.

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In reply to Aiwe
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10 years ago
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Aiwe
I hope you understand that you are in the minority.
I've been hearing this throughout my entire career as a player.

For example, I was talking about the need for a shorter timer back when the standard timer was increased by 1-2 minutes each year. At its peak, games were played with 10 minutes per turn on Jeb and XL+U, with the timer stopping during combat. Then, the trend started to reverse. The community realized that dragging things out with two or three delays wasn't what Heroes needed; the optimal way to play is to finish a game in one session, even if it comes at the expense of game quality. My current opinion is slightly ahead of the trend; I believe that a game should be completed in an evening, in 3-5 hours.

Or, for example, when mirror matches were introduced, they didn't really catch on and were only played in specialized tournaments or in the semifinals and finals. The arguments were along the lines of "too much stress," saying that it's okay for important games against equally skilled opponents, but it's psychologically difficult for casual games, as you have to concentrate too much on the game; it's better to play something more arcade-like. Now, I see a lot of fun games being played in mirror matches, with players taking turns choosing the faction, etc. The community has realized that playing based on skill is more interesting than playing based on luck. My current opinion is also slightly ahead of the trend; I believe that the basic set of templates should consist exclusively of mirror matches, with everything else being optional and based on mutual agreement.

Or, if we go back even further, we can remember the time when 100% of games on HotA were played on 2sm4d(3), and people avoided XL+U like the plague.

The mechanism here is that the Heroes community is renewed by about 50% every 2-3 years, so it's pointless to argue with adherents of other views; it's better to wait for them to die out naturally. Newcomers, due to their less ideological conditioning, are more receptive to reasonable ideas, so when promoting new ideas, it's better to focus on their reasonableness rather than on political agitation, arguments, etc.

Of course, there were also dead-end ideas that I eventually abandoned myself. For example, the concept of HotA: "shake up the gameplay as much as you want, as long as it's balanced and diverse." Currently, I'm more inclined towards the concept of HotS: "don't shake up the gameplay, preserve as much continuity with SoD as possible; create balance and variety by adding functionality, not by changing it."

Or, for example, the concept: "XL+U are the best templates, a papal game is only possible on them." Now, I'm more inclined towards the concept: "spectacle and a short game duration are primary in a template; everything else is secondary."
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10 years ago
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"in the template, visual appeal and a short match duration are primary, everything else is secondary."
Vik, don't you think it would be easier to implement this concept using fixed maps? Unlike random maps, you can guarantee visual appeal (at least, that's how I see it), there are many options to limit the match duration, and a short timer fits well into the gameplay on fixed maps, as the map is studied in advance. And HotA could probably bring many interesting things to mapmaking.
In reply to StickyFingaz
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10 years ago
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StickyFingaz
Vic, don't you think it would be easier to implement this concept using fixed maps? Unlike random maps, you can guarantee a spectacular experience (at least, that's what I think). There are many options to limit the duration of the game, and a short timer fits well into the gameplay of fixed maps, as the map is studied in advance. And HotA could probably bring many interesting things to mapmaking.
Unreal...

Although individual fixed maps can certainly be added to diversify the selection for individual tournaments. For example, there's a trend of porting the Pirates of the Caribbean map into HotA.
In reply to Wicc
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10 years ago
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Wicc
the basic set of templates should consist exclusively of mirrored units; anything else should be added only with mutual consent.

+100500!
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10 years ago
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The pirate map is good, but it takes a lot of time to complete. Maybe it would be a good idea to reduce its size to M and decrease the number of islands?
In reply to Wicc
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10 years ago
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Wicc
For example, Mini-Nosta and all the XL maps are boring.
Wicc
Or, for example, the concept: "XL+U are the best maps, and a papal game is only possible on them." Now, I prefer the concept: "in a map, the primary focus should be on spectacle and a short game duration; everything else is secondary."
Well, you finally saw the light!!! :smile02: I've been trying to push this for a long time!!! Since the moment when people started playing 10-minute games with a SOD timer :smile21:
In reply to Dirty_Player
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10 years ago
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Dirty_Player
Well, you finally saw the light!!! :smile02: I've been trying to push this for a long time!!! Since the moment when people started playing with a SOD timer for 10 minutes :smile21:
It seems you didn't notice the phrase
Wicc
Although playing XL games is probably the most interesting.
This is a case where the interests of the player and the viewer diverge. When I was a player, streaming was not well developed, and the only software available was Mikoga. That's why I expressed my player's opinion about XL+U.
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10 years ago
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StickyFingaz
and Hota might be able to bring many interesting things to mapmaking.

For example, semi-fixed maps. In the map editor, a new type of terrain appears - terra incognita, which, when creating a game, is filled with a random set of objects.
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10 years ago
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On fixed maps like Desert War, Divided Loyalties, and others, the game took about 3-4 hours. With Online Heroes, it's even faster; adapting a map for Heroes should take about 5 minutes. The resulting product can be shared with promoters :smile08: another option is M200)).
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10 years ago
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In my opinion, the main goal that the development should ultimately achieve is to create a system where both players receive absolutely identical heroes simultaneously, and these heroes level up in exactly the same way. That would be a timeless trend.
In reply to Wicc
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10 years ago
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Wicc
Now I see a lot of fan-made games on mirrored maps, with specific starting positions, etc. The community has matured to the point where they realize that playing based on skill is more interesting than playing with an advantage.
=Lizard=
In my opinion, the main goal of the development should be mirrored maps, where both players receive absolutely identical heroes that level up in exactly the same way. That would be a trend for all time.

Mirrored maps in their current form have a drawback/feature: once you have scouted your half of the map, you know half of the opponent's map. Doesn't this reduce the spectacle and variety? Won't everything come down to whoever breaks through into the opponent's zones first being the winner?
Ideally, perhaps (theoretically), it would be possible to improve the map generator so that maps are generated in a quasi-mirrored way, i.e., the zones would not be identical, but simply equivalent in all key characteristics: the number of objects, distances to them, rewards, but the specific location would be different, etc.
In reply to Burning Daylight
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10 years ago
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Burning Daylight
Mirror maps, in their current form, have a drawback/feature: once you've explored half of the map, you know half of what the opponent has. Doesn't this reduce the spectacle and variety?
Ideally, perhaps (theoretically), it would be possible to improve the map generator so that maps are generated in a quasi-mirror fashion, i.e., the zones would not be identical, but simply equivalent in all key characteristics: number of objects, distances to them, rewards, but the specific location would be different, etc.
This is an epic challenge for a programmer and a massive headache on the topic of "we didn't get equivalent respawn points!!!"
In reply to Wicc
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10 years ago
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Wicc
This is an epic challenge for a programmer and a massive headache on the topic of "we didn't get equal respawn rates!!!"
I don't know, I've been thinking for a long time about writing a map generator from scratch. It seems like a manageable task from a technical point of view. More importantly, players need to form a set of criteria for "equal" zones - this is more difficult, in my opinion. And complaints about unequal respawn rates should, in theory, quickly subside. Now, people have come to terms with the unequal respawn rates and are playing normally - it won't get any worse.
In reply to Burning Daylight
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10 years ago
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Burning Daylight
Complaints about unequal respawns will, in theory, quickly fade away. People have already come to terms with the inequality of respawns and play on them just fine — it won't get any worse.
Well, the mirror template was essentially made to eliminate the factor of unequal distributions. Those who want to play an asymmetrical distribution would rather play standard templates than a semi-mirror one.
I don't know, I don't know, I've been thinking for a long time about writing a map generator from scratch. Technically, it seems like a feasible task to me.
It is feasible. Though making an alternative generator to replace the existing one is, IMHO, not the most rewarding endeavor; it's better to create a generator for fundamentally different types of maps that don't compete with the current generator.

For example, a sea map generator would be quite appropriate. The standard generator cannot create them, and various add-ons over it, like the WoG Seafarers, have limited capabilities.
More importantly, players should form a set of criteria for "equality" of zones — that's harder, IMHO.
Unreal. Any little thing can roll the dice, like "his SP booster is 5 tiles closer, so Luna broke the blockade a day earlier."
In reply to Wicc
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10 years ago
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Wicc
It would be better to create a generator for fundamentally different types of maps, ones that don't compete with the existing generator.
For example, a generator for sea maps would be very appropriate.
And what other new types of maps could there be?
Wicc

Unreal. Any small thing could trigger it, like "he has a skill that increases SP by 5 cells, so the Moon broke the block a day earlier."
Yes, but it could reduce the need for restarts to ~0 (saving up to an hour) and significantly improve the balance between zones, thus gaining the advantages of both mirrored (partially) and asymmetrical templates at the same time. In my opinion, right now it often turns out that one player has a good start, while the other has nothing, meaning it's not just that one has "archers" and the other has "melee units," but rather one has "archers + melee units," and the other has a shrine level 1.

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