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Posts from Tournaments and player rating.

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Offline Jubi-Juby
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Posts: 627
#16
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Based on my personal experience, I can say that in the experimental "Wizard OH" tournament, I liked the idea of being able to submit non-automated reports. Since I participated in the tournament only because of my love for HotA, and not for simultaneous turns. Therefore, I support Cobra's idea. I also liked the idea of SCD, I think it is promising, but it is unlikely to ever be implemented, as it is complex and there will be a lot of criticism. Well, and Dirty is also right in his own way. As they say, the truth is somewhere in the middle.
I am in favor of most tournament games being automatically included in the rating, with rare exceptions for very unconventional tournaments. As they say, every good rule has exceptions, which only confirm the rule...
ICQ 669307560

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Offline skd
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Posts: 1,129
#17
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LuckyF
On what basis should the rating change coefficient be increased in official Tournaments? This will make it even less accurate; at least, the range for a more or less adequate display of the rating will increase.

Unfortunately, I don't know how the rating is calculated, but if it's possible to add a tournament coefficient to the rating calculation formula, then this approach makes sense.

For example:
in a regular report in a season or in an unofficial Tournament, the final change in rating points is multiplied by x1.
And in official Tournaments, by the corresponding coefficient, depending on the "weight" of the Tournament.
FB x2
OFB x 1.5
Only HL x1.5
Favorites x 1.3
M-200 x 1.3
Novice x 1.2
It should be noted that the coefficient also applies when reducing points for a loss and when deducting points from players for participating in a Tournament.
This will be an additional incentive for players to finish Tournaments.
With the introduction of such a system in the future, it will be possible to set a threshold for Tournaments:
For example, The conducted the Champions League, inviting the winners of Tournaments and holding qualifiers. It will be possible to set a lower threshold for ratings in a Tournament (for example, 1600).
With the introduction of an automatic rating, these changes will be able to influence the conduct of Tournaments.
In addition, this approach should encourage players to finish Tournaments.

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Offline Aiwe
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Posts: 1,330
#19
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skd
It will be possible to set a lower threshold for ratings in a tournament (e.g., 1600).

Damn, looks like I'm going to miss the next FB, and Javdet won't even be accepted into m200 :(

I suggest a tournament called "Season's Storm" between Maretti and Sevansan:
Both will play against each player on the list, starting with the player with the lowest rating and continuing until the first loss, on the Erathia map, of course.
http://heroes3.tv/aiwe
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Offline StickyFingaz
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Posts: 1,486
#20
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Introducing coefficients and other bonuses will affect the objectivity of the ranking, and this should not be done under any circumstances.
I suggested taking the top 3 from the ranking directly into the Facebook group without any selection process, or continuing down the list if someone from the top 3 is already there. This would make it worthwhile to be in the top ten, for example. On the other hand, players who don't care about the ranking will also not care about the Facebook group with such regulations and a questionable history. It's a shame that there isn't a Heroes of Might and Magic tournament with the prestige and hype that the similar tournament on Battle.net had at one time (I forgot what it was called).
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Offline Dirty_Player
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Posts: 11,032
#21
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skd
Unfortunately, I don't know how the rating is calculated, but if it's possible to add a tournament coefficient to the rating calculation formula, then such an approach would be viable.
It's not difficult to add a coefficient to any formula; the question is, is it needed? Perhaps it would be good to allow a coefficient of 0.5 only for the seasonal league, and possibly for M200 (although this is debatable).
skd
In addition, this approach should encourage players to finish tournaments.
Quite the opposite. Such an approach with increasing coefficients will make some players withdraw from an "unsuccessful" tournament so as not to lose even more rating.

Added 6 minutes later
StickyFingaz
on the other hand, dads who don't care about the rating will also not care about the Facebook group.
Name me a dad who actively plays Heroes but doesn't care about the Facebook group? All active players currently participate in the selection process.
StickyFingaz
with such regulations and a shameful history. it's a pity that there isn't a tournament on Hv with prestige.
How can it be more prestigious than the World Championship, with its impeccable history? :smile15:
StickyFingaz
and the hype that there was at one time for a similar tournament on Battle.net (I forgot what it was called).
If I remember correctly, that tournament was never finished.
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Offline StickyFingaz
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Posts: 1,486
#22
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The arguments are solid. I'm convinced; there's no need to change anything; everything is fine as it is.
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Offline Volodymyr
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Posts: 366
#23
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StickyFingaz
It's a pity there isn't an ХВ tournament with the prestige and hype that existed back in the day for a similar tournament on Battle.net (I forgot what it was called).
"Real Guys"
Dirty_Player
If I remember correctly, they never finished playing that last such tournament.
You do remember :) In the final, AlexTheGreat beat Vanya TERM (12.2009-04.2010)


The tournament was created by SmapuK – a very strong player and tournament organizer. No one has matched his skill in organizing tournaments to this day. (a little history lesson :)) Just out of respect for him, you could have avoided writing about "RP" in that tone.
And "RP" itself deserves no less respect; perhaps not without reason was it copied here and renamed "FB."
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Offline Volodymyr
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Posts: 366
#24
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A long time ago, it was suggested to separate tournament games from seasonal games. But arguments like "The season is also a tournament" often prevailed. If GoD loses 10 games to Gomunguls and drops from the top 5 to 23rd place, it doesn't necessarily mean that Zhenya is playing worse than the 20 (figuratively) people who are now ahead of him. Yes, the rating has become more objective over time due to the large number of games, but this situation clearly shows its weak side. Yes, "the season" is also a tournament, but it's still a fun one. Some people don't post, some play while drinking beer, and some do something else... Tournament games carry more responsibility, and most importantly, everyone who wants to compete for the top spot will have approximately the same number of games. Perhaps it would be worth focusing on these results when trying to assess the strength of the players? And let "the season" be, but on the side, separately?
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Offline Dark
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Posts: 3,694
#25
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Volodymyr
"Real Guys"

He cheated :) In the final, AlexTheGreat beat Vanya TERM (12.2009-04.2010)
Was this when they were cracking save files?:cool:
Essentially, all games should be included in the ranking so that it is more objective and prevents players from avoiding certain opponents in ranked matches to avoid losing points, while allowing them to play against others.

лето 2012.
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Offline Dirty_Player
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Posts: 11,032
#26
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Volodymyr
The tournament was created by CmapuK, a very strong player and tournament host. To this day, no one has matched his skill in organizing tournaments. (a brief history lesson :)) Out of respect for him alone, one could have refrained from writing about "RP" in such a tone.
And "RP" itself deserves no less respect; it was probably not for nothing that it was copied here and called "FB"
By no means did I intend to offend or upset anyone. Regarding the tournament that was played for a very long time, I meant RP-3, which had a round-robin format. I simply do not understand Sticky's position about the inadequacy of the FB tournament, which he repeats year after year. And this is a response, showing that everything has its drawbacks.

Added after 17 minutes
Volodymyr
If GoD loses about 10 games to Gomunguls and drops from the top 5 to 23rd place, that does not mean that Zhenya plays worse than those 20 (roughly) people who are currently ahead of him.
Based on the rating formula, if the difference between players is 400 points or more, the favorite should win with a probability close to 100%. If the difference is less than 400 points, say 100, but one player loses 10 games in a row to another, that means either the rating of one is inflated or the other's is deflated. The HeroesWorld rating formula is copied from chess, where they have been calculating using this exact formula for several decades.
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Offline Dark
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Posts: 3,694
#27
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Dirty_Player
I simply don't understand Sticky's position regarding the FB tournament's unsuitability, which he repeats year after year. And this is like a response, pointing out that everything has its flaws.

I don't understand why several players from the current FB tournament, or rather 3, advance to the next one, and they can even be the same players. It's been a long time since the format should have been changed so that only 1 winner advances to the next FB. This is because the selection process is very tough, and in addition to skill, you also need luck:smile31:
Or am I wrong, and that's how it is?!

лето 2012.
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Offline Volodymyr
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Posts: 366
#28
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Dirty_Player
Based on the rating formula, if the difference between players is 400 points or more, the favorite's win probability should be close to 100%. If the difference is less than 400 points, say 100, but one player loses 10 games in a row to the other without any wins, that means either one player's rating is inflated or the other's is deflated. The HeroesWorld rating formula is copied from chess, where they have been calculating using this same formula for several decades.
There are no questions about the rating calculation formula.
Nothing personal, purely as an example, if Maretti plays 10+ games in a row against Gomunguls, there is a chance that he will drop out of the top 5, but the probability of this event is close to zero. So we have what we have :) Some are in the top 3, while others are outside the top 20, the only question is whether the skill difference is really that significant?
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Offline KobRa_RR
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Posts: 3,259
#29
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Volodymyr
There are no objections to the formula for calculating the rating.
Nothing personal, just an example: if Maretti plays 10+ games in a row against Gomunguls, there is a chance that he will drop out of the top 5, but the probability of this event approaches zero. So we have what we have :) Someone is in the top 3, and someone is below twentieth place; the question is only whether the skill level is really so different?

No, of course not; now anyone can lose to anyone

Added after 1 minute
Volodymyr
"Real guys"

It changes :) In the final, AlexTheGreat beat Vanya TERM (12.2009-04.2010)


The tournament was invented by СmapuK - a very strong player and host of tournaments. No one has matched his skills in organizing tournaments yet. (a historical excursion :)) Just out of respect for him, it would be better not to write about "RP" in such a tone.
And "RP" itself deserves no less respect; perhaps it wasn't without reason that it was copied here and renamed "FB".

Thank you for the nostalgia, Volodymyr! Do you still have other years of the tournament saved? It would be good to upload them somewhere for posterity


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Offline Joker2k
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Posts: 388
#30
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Regarding the topic - Cobra's position is understandable, but I prefer Dirty's approach - either all games are reported and included in the ranking, or none at all. Regarding the ranking: - Consider the results in the ranking for 1 (1.5 or 2) years, this will make it more relevant. - Add bonus points for results in tournaments, although this will require creating a real tournament calendar. - Divide the rankings by HoTa and SoD. - Return automatic confirmation of reports or start applying "sanctions" against "debtors". Regarding tournaments: - Abandon group stages; conduct single, double, triple, or any other type of elimination, but each tournament game should have a sporting interest and a specific deadline. - "Force" tournament organizers to consider the ranking when seeding.
Dark
I don't understand why several players from the current Facebook group, or rather 3, advance to the next round, and they can even be the same ones. It's been a long time since the format should have been changed so that only 1 winner advances to the next Facebook group.
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