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Vacation is over, so let's get back to work :)

Congratulations to everyone elected to the AK, especially those newly elected :smile20:

However, the recent election campaign raised a number of issues that I would like to discuss, and possibly propose amendments to the AK charter.

1. The closed nature of AK activities.

I don't remember why it was done this way initially, but now it's clear that it creates some difficulties:

a) The silent disappearance of AK members goes unnoticed. Decisions made by a smaller group have the same legal force. This has been happening lately, and if it hadn't been voiced by the AK members themselves, it would have continued.

b) Mizrael's example shows the optimal strategy for an AK member - to remain silent, not write anything on the forum about AK work, so as not to create a negative reputation. The trick of this strategy is that even in the event of a major scandal, only its participants resign, while the silent ones retain their positions. It's quite an advantage, in my opinion... I'm afraid that this strategy will become too popular.

c) It is impossible to individually assess the work of AK members - who voted how, who argued how, who was even at work? In the previous thread, a romantic soul asked - "what are the claims against me as an AK member?", and it is impossible to give an answer here, because the work of a specific AK member is completely invisible.

In this regard, there is a proposal - to make the work of the AK more public. For example, create 2 sections on the AK forum - open and closed. All current proceedings are conducted in the closed section, and after, for example, 3 months from the date of the decision (so that the emotions subside), the corresponding thread is moved to the open section. Old topics should also be moved to the open section.

2. Combining the position of AK member and moderator.

I've already written about this - it creates risks of abuse. Because the activities of an AK member can create turmoil on the forum, and the moderator's responsibility is to control this turmoil and reduce its intensity.

And when the same person carries out 2 opposite processes, the system risks losing stability and sliding into one of the extremes - either uncontrolled turmoil, or "everyone under the bed!".

The argument "lately this has not been the case" is, in my opinion, not an argument - the principle of "don't look a gift horse in the mouth" is not the best way to organize public life (although it is the most popular), it is better to anticipate possible difficulties in advance and somehow prepare for them.

Another reason is that people come and go, and if this is not so noticeable in the case of players, then in the case of officials it is much more noticeable. For example, Pit said that he has less time for public activities, so the forum loses both a moderator and an AK member at the same time.

In this regard, the proposal is to prohibit the combination of the positions of AK member and moderator of the online-tree section.

Here, moderator refers to the supervisor moderator - whose responsibilities include monitoring discipline and communication culture, deleting/moving posts and topics, assigning violation points, banning, etc.

3. Game rules

Previously, all changes to the rules of Hv were made by voting. Over time, the situation has silently shifted to the format "changes to the rules of Hv are made by Pit, sometimes coordinating them through voting, sometimes not".

This ambiguity of the situation has several times led to questions and claims - here you need to either choose underwear or a cross, in the sense of fixing one of the options.

The options here are as follows:

a) All changes to the rules of Hv only through a general vote (the passing percentage and participation criteria are to be discussed).

b) The rules of Hv are managed by one person or a group of 2-3 people (elected or appointed).

c) The rules of Hv are managed by the AK.

I have no specific preferences here, as I don't play myself, so I will be satisfied with any of these options, as long as it is officially announced and strictly adhered to in practice.

4. Rules for official tournaments

We are talking about organizational rules, not game rules - the number of participants, deadlines, the format of the bracket, admission/non-admission of participants, etc.

Currently, official tournaments do not differ from unofficial ones in fact - in both cases, all decisions are made by the organizer.

For example, recently Dirty refused Rebel participation in OFB, arguing that "as the host, I have the right to do so". Although the basis for refusal to participate in an official tournament can only be disciplinary action (CMCH, cards, etc.).

Or, for example, the story with the expansion of FB, the transfer of results from OFB to FB - the host wanted to and did it, then it was barely challenged.

Or, for example, all sorts of innovations in the OFB format - each OFB is held according to a new formula, and each time logical questions arise - "why?", the answer to which is always "if you don't want to, don't participate".

Initially, official tournaments were positioned as conservative, with a constant name, deadlines and regulations. And all experiments and innovations were tested in fan tournaments.

In this regard, the proposal is to streamline the regulations for official tournaments, oblige the hosts to comply with them, create a position of responsible person (or persons) for the rules of official tournaments, it can be combined with the position of responsible for the rules of Hv (in order not to inflate bureaucracy).

5. Registration for tournaments.

Currently, only Pit and Dirty can confirm automatic registration. And they are sometimes busy or away or something else. I remember that in "Tasting" the list of registered participants was not updated for 2 weeks, because Dirty was at the CIS, and Pit's inbox was full.

The proposal is to give the function of confirming registration to the tournament hosts.



These are some thoughts... if anyone has any other questions and suggestions for improving forum life, please share them.

I will not create a poll yet, because experience shows that the bulk of votes come in the first few days, and constructive discussion often begins later and changes the public trend. Therefore, it is better to discuss first, and after the presentation of arguments, if there is no agreement, vote.
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Wicc

1. Confidentiality of the AK's activities.
I agree with all points except for the "strategy of Mizrael to remain silent" - I think this behavior is simply due to Mizrael's character.
Even before the AK elections ended, I suggested to Kostya to create some kind of public topic where all AK activities would be recorded (precedents, decisions made, justification for decisions, etc.).
Wicc

2. Combining the positions of AK member and moderator.
I don't see a problem here. I am in favor of transferring moderator functions to people who frequently visit the forum. Recently, there have been cases where a flame war lingered on the forum for 2-3 days. For example, I visit the forum about 20 times a day, and I think there are many such people - it's just a matter of choosing a couple of adequate and competent people. There isn't much moderator work as such, but sometimes there is a lack of responsiveness.
Wicc

3. Game rules
I am in favor of authorizing the AK to make changes to the rules, because holding general polls takes a very long time, and often it is necessary to urgently make additions to the rules (for example, in the case of a bug in the Naval Collection).
Wicc

4. Rules for official Tournaments

For example, recently Dirty refused Rebel's participation in the OFB, arguing that "as the host, I have the right to do so." However, the only basis for refusing participation in an official tournament should be disciplinary action (warnings, cards, etc.).
Kostya refused Rebelio in "Outlaw".
Wicc

In this regard, the proposal is to streamline the regulations for official Tournaments, oblige the hosts to comply with them, and create a position of responsible person (or persons) for the rules of official Tournaments, which can be combined with the position of responsible person for the rules of Hv (in order not to create bureaucracy).
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Wicc

5. Registration for Tournaments.

Currently, only Pit and Dirty can confirm automatic registration. And sometimes they are either busy or away or something else. I remember that in "Tasting" the list of registered players was not updated for 2 weeks because Dirty was at the CIS, and Pit's inbox was full.
The proposal is to give the function of confirming registration to the tournament hosts.
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Nitro
I agree with all points except for the "strategy of Mizrael remaining silent" — I think such behavior is simply due to Mizrael's character.
Uh-huh, but a precedent has been set, and now others can use it.
Even before the elections ended, I suggested to Kostya to create some public topic that would record all the activities of the AK (precedents, decisions made, rationale for decisions, etc.)
This doesn't change the situation, because this public topic will be maintained by 1-2 of the most active AK members, whose activities are already clearly visible.
I don't see a problem here.
It's not visible until the first such episode occurs. As I said — people won't stir until the crisis hits. I've simply seen such episodes on various forums many times before; on HeroesWorld, all the prerequisites are in place for them.
Kostya denied Rebellious the "Outlaw" status.
Indeed. My memory must have failed me...
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What is meant by "1. Confidentiality of the AK's activities"? Does this mean that the AK should discuss all matters publicly? Or was all discussion made public afterward? Or am I misunderstanding something? Or should the minutes of the meeting be made available to the public?

It seems to me that there are matters that the forum is better off not knowing about, for example, people don't necessarily need to know the methods for catching clones/cheaters. It is also not advisable to publicize cases of false accusations of cheating, etc.

2. Combining the positions of AK member and moderator.
You reason as if we have a large number of people who want to moderate and be a member of the AK. As a rule, not many people want to moderate, and not many are capable of doing so. What can we do?

Added after 10 minutes
5. Tournament registration.
I agree that the list of those who could confirm registration and edit reports should be expanded. There are plans.
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Dirty_Player
What is meant by "1. Confidentiality of the Arbitration Committee's activities?" Does this mean that the Arbitration Committee should discuss all matters publicly? Or was all discussion made public afterward? Or am I misunderstanding something? Or should the minutes of the meeting be made available to the public?
"All discussion should be made public afterward."
It seems to me that there are matters that the forum is better off not knowing about, for example, people don't necessarily need to know the methods for catching clones/cheaters.
Such information can be removed from topics before they are made public. Although, regarding cheaters, I don't think there's anything secret, as similar disputes have been conducted publicly many times, and the methods are known.
Also, cases of false accusations of cheating, etc., should not be made public.
Why? A well-reasoned acquittal does not harm the accused; rather, it is more likely to benefit them.
2. Combining the positions of Arbitration Committee member and moderator.
You reason as if we have a large number of people who want to moderate and be a member of the Arbitration Committee. As a rule, not many people want to moderate, and not many are capable of doing so. What can we do?
18 people applied for the position of Arbitration Committee member. Applications for moderators were not accepted, but I think there would be many willing to do so.
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Unfortunately, we have a number of well-known individuals who, in any situation, know what is best to do and invariably try to write about it. Making all AK information publicly available is like providing such fodder for trolls that I'm already afraid to imagine the amount of arguing and/or pointless chatter. We could consider a topic-protocol format, where the issues addressed by the AK, the number of participants, and their votes are indicated. I don't see much point in greater publicity.
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Dirty_Player
Unfortunately, we have a number of well-known individuals who, in any situation, know what is best to do and invariably try to write about it. Making all AK information publicly available is like providing such fodder for trolls that I'm already afraid to imagine the amount of arguing and/or pointless chatter.
First, if you're afraid of arguments/chatter, you shouldn't be in the AK/moderators.

Second, I find it hard to imagine what could be written in an internal AK discussion of an incident that, after a few months, would escalate the level of tension higher than during the incident itself. Or even cause renewed tension; usually, everyone quickly becomes indifferent, perhaps the victims will grumble a little.

Third, I've already written that people's right to express themselves should not be restricted, as it can have negative consequences. The fact that someone will chat, and their chatter will eventually be moved to the Tribune, won't be a bad thing.

Instead, everyone will know who is doing what in the AK. Yes, individual members of the AK may earn a negative reputation because of this, but this is an inevitable consequence of such work, and avoiding it is not a very honorable act.
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I might have missed something, could you please share the complete list of those elected to the AK?
241-568-808
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The_
I missed something; could you please share the complete list of those selected for the AC?
Could I take a look at the neighboring topic?
/topic/11377/

Added 9 minutes later
Wicc
Well, thirdly, as I already wrote, one should not restrict people's right to express themselves, because it can lead to negative consequences.
It’s one thing not to interfere with people expressing their opinions, and another to stick your nose into things that are none of your business. These are two very different things. We have more than enough people who like doing the latter.
Wicc
But then everyone will know who is doing what in the AC. Yes, individual members of the AC may earn a bad reputation from this, but this is an inevitable consequence of such work; trying to avoid it isn't a particularly honorable act.
Membership in the AC is not a mandate like that of a deputy, which gives privileges and a high salary so they can cling to their positions and simply "sit around." What is the point? What are the benefits of this strategy?
b) The example of Mizrael shows the optimal strategy for an AC member: remain silent, don't write anything on the forum about the AC's work, so as not to create a bad reputation for yourself. The trick to this strategy is that even in the event of a major scandal, only its participants resign, while those who remain silent keep their seats. It's quite powerful, IMHO... I fear that this strategy will become too popular.
As for the person of Mizrael, whom you somehow used as an example, he participated in every discussion, always promptly and constructively. In addition, he is reasonable, impartial, always ready to help, and has authority on the forum. An excellent candidate.
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Let me clarify the situation with the "silent" committee. Initially, the Arbitration Committee (AK) was created as a closed body, consisting of people trusted by the forum, and therefore their decisions were considered optimal a priori. A closed section was specifically created on the forum for the AK, and until a final decision was made, it was forbidden to disclose information about the progress of the investigation, both on the forum and in personal conversations with anyone outside the AK. That's why there are very few statements from me on the forum regarding AK matters; these are the rules of the committee's operation. The final decision is posted by someone from the AK, and I haven't had to play that role. However, this is not a personal decision of someone, but a collective one, and it makes no difference who announces it. Regarding greater transparency, in my opinion, the maximum that should be done is to also publish the results of the vote by name along with the decision. Everyone who is interested in the logical reasoning used in making the decision already asks about it in private messages, and we haven't refused anyone. It seems that with all this talk about transparency, people want to turn the AK into a talk show rather than a serious body
http://www.twitch.tv/mikevalentine/
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Dirty_Player
It's one thing not to interfere with people expressing their opinions, and another to stick your nose into things that aren't your business. These are two very different things. We have plenty of people who like the latter.
In this case, what was meant by "not your business"? Judges' decisions? Were you also bitten by Dubrovin? :cool:

Discussing the decisions of tournament judges and the decisions of the Arbitration Committee is not only not prohibited by the forum rules, but is also a necessary element of feedback. As experience from many years of observation shows, from time to time the Arbitration Committee makes "strange" decisions, and silently accepting them means accumulating tension.
Membership in the Arbitration Committee is not a mandate of a deputy, which gives privileges and a large salary to hold onto positions and just "sit around." What's the point? What are the benefits of this strategy?
Judging by the number of people who want to join the Arbitration Committee, there is definitely a point to it. And there's no need to pretend to be naive :rolleyes:
As for the person of Mizrael, whom you for some reason brought up as an example, he participated in every discussion, always promptly and to the point. In addition, he is adequate, impartial, always ready to help, and has authority on the forum. An excellent candidate.
And here's what I want to know - how am I, a simple voter, supposed to know that Gomunguls is silent because he recused himself, Dalavista is silent because he went on a crusade, and Mizrael is silent because that's his position? From the outside, their behavior looks identical.

Added 17 minutes ago
Mizrael
I'll explain a little about the "silent" situation :) Initially, the Arbitration Committee was created as a closed body, consisting of people whom the forum trusts, and therefore their decision is recognized as optimal a priori.
A closed section of the forum was specifically created for the Arbitration Committee, and it is forbidden to disclose information about the progress of the investigation to the forum or in personal communication with anyone outside the Arbitration Committee until a final decision is made. Therefore, there are few statements from me on the forum regarding Arbitration Committee matters; these are the rules of the committee's work... The final decision is posted by someone from the Arbitration Committee, and it has not been my role to do so, but this is not a personal decision of anyone, but a collective one, and there is no difference who announces it...
As for greater openness, in my opinion, the maximum that should be done is to post the results of the vote by name along with the decision. Everyone who is interested in the logical reasoning used in making the decision can ask me in a private message, and I have never refused anyone... It seems that with all this openness, people want to turn the Arbitration Committee into a talk show, rather than a serious body :)
The point I'm making here is that secrecy and election are contradictory characteristics. Elected bodies engage in public activities, their members engage in self-promotion, communication with voters, reports on work done, etc.

And closed bodies are appointed by order from above and are accountable only to the boss.

Therefore, elected bodies of government (parliaments and the like) are, yes, talk shows - meetings are often held in live broadcast, in the presence of journalists and the public, meeting minutes are published and discussed in the press, etc. This is a common norm of political practice.

Without all this, elections turn into a sham - we elect someone, but who - who knows :smile32:
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Here's what's interesting: in the recent elections, the forum voted for ALL the members of the Arbitration Committee (AK) who were in office at the time, but it didn't choose Vika, despite his "beautiful" and "correct" slogans. It seems that the forum was and is satisfied with the AK's activities, but he feels offended that he wasn't appreciated and, as an experienced opposition figure, he can't let it go, so here's a new topic. It's like in the State Duma elections, when a candidate who didn't get elected says, "Guys, let me teach you everything, let's change everything, I know how it should be done." :)
As always, there's Vika's opinion and then there's another, stupid opinion.
Personally, I see this post as:
296524052
Весна 2012.
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evil_romantic
Here's the interesting part: in the recent elections, the forum voted for ALL the current members of the Administration Council (AC), but they didn't choose Vika, despite his "beautiful" and "correct" slogans. It seems the forum was and is satisfied with the AC's activities, but he's offended that he wasn't appreciated, and this experienced "opposition" figure can't let it go, so here's a new topic. It's like when a candidate who didn't get elected to the State Duma says, "Hey, let me teach you all, let me change everything, I know how it should be done!" :)
Without a real "opposition," any state degrades. For some reason, in our country, this word has acquired a negative connotation.
45 people voted for Vikka, and 46 for you, Roma. Even though many voted against Vikka, that doesn't mean we can ignore the votes of 45 people.
I believe that the AC should "keep its finger on the pulse" and be open to new ideas.
I don't know much about Vikka, but I have the impression that he, like you, Roma, cares about the fate of our gaming community – and that's the most important thing. So let's listen to each other instead of exchanging accusations.
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zloy_romantik
I personally perceive this post as
It has long been noticed, and not only by me, that amateur psychoanalysis usually boils down to attributing one's own fears, complexes, and motivations to the object of analysis.

I myself sometimes fall into this trap.
Interestingly, in the past elections, the forum voted for ALL members of the Arbitration Committee who were in office at that time.
Let's conduct a thought experiment: shortly before Peterius recused himself, Dalavista suddenly appeared and said, "Guys, sorry, I went out for a smoke, I'm back." Then he gained his +40 votes in the usual way and left again. In my opinion, this is a clear bug and an abuse of the Arbitration Committee's regulations.

The point is that the benefit of the Arbitration Committee as a collective does not determine the benefit of the activities of individual members of the Arbitration Committee.
And since Vika, with his "beautiful" and "correct" slogans, was not chosen, it turns out that the forum was and is satisfied with the activities of the Arbitration Committee, but it's still offensive that he wasn't appreciated, and this experienced opposition figure doesn't calm down, and here's a new topic.
Oh, you're talking nonsense... Your self-esteem has skyrocketed, you need to be brought back down to earth a little...

Try to grasp a simple thought:

- there's Vika, who, not being a member of the Arbitration Committee, but rather being an opposition to the generally adequate composition of the Arbitration Committee, and also having a significant number of ill-wishers for various reasons, gains +22 votes.

- and there's zloy_romantik, who, being a member of the Arbitration Committee, and therefore having an initial advantage of ~20-30 votes "for the current composition," gains +33 votes, on par with newcomers and with a significant lag behind his colleagues.

In this situation, it is reasonable to assume that if zloy_romantik had not been a member of the Arbitration Committee, he would have been around zero, or even in the negative.

You need to be more modest...
zloy_romantik
As always, there's Vika's opinion and there's another, stupid opinion.
Maybe it's because I try not to argue with smart opinions, has that thought ever occurred to you?
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Wicc
In this regard, there is a suggestion to make the Arbitration Committee's (AK) work more public. For example, create two sections on the AK forum: an open one and a closed one. All current cases are handled in the closed section, and after, for example, 3 months from the date the decision is made (to allow the dust to settle), the corresponding thread is moved to the open section. Old topics should also be moved to the open section.
This is not a bad option, but it's too radical; I don't think anyone is ready for it. It would be quite sufficient to have a protocol – who voted how and why. What is important in my opinion is that the public announcement of the decision should be accompanied by an explanation of that decision, yes, with a direct link to the rules and an additional comment if necessary.
Wicc
2. Combining the positions of AK member and moderator.
If this entire point is written with one specific moderator in mind, is it worth introducing the rule? Wouldn't it be easier to replace the moderator?
Wicc

4. Rules for official tournaments
Or, for example, the story with the expansion pack, transferring results from OFB to FB – the organizer wanted to and did it, and then it was barely challenged.

Or, for example, all sorts of innovations in the OFB format – each OFB is held according to a new formula, and each time logical questions arise – "why?", and the answer is always "if you don't want to, don't participate".

Initially, official tournaments were positioned as conservative, with a constant name, schedule, and regulations. And all experiments and innovations were tested in fan tournaments.
A mandatory point in these rules is that the organizer should not have the authority to make changes to the regulations during the tournament. In the current OFB, there have already been two or three such changes – three points instead of two for a win and a ban on recording a draw in the last round. No, but can you imagine if the regulations in a football or chess tournament were changed during the tournament? Strictly speaking, this is unacceptable even in an unofficial tournament, and in the main tournament of the forum (as FB is positioned), it is completely unacceptable.
Nitro

I am in favor of authorizing the AK to make changes to the rules, because holding general polls takes a very long time, and often it is necessary to urgently make additions to the rules (for example, in the case of a bug in the Sea Battle expansion).
So, what's this? An elected official is advocating for expanding their own powers; you've started well :D During the vote, it was stipulated that we were voting for judges who would resolve controversial situations, not for those who would decide what rules the entire forum would play by. If this had been stipulated from the beginning, the voting results might have been different. This is the same as after the election of a mayor, announcing that the mayor will also have gubernatorial powers. It's just not right. As for the Admiral's precedent, this is clearly a bug fix – no vote is needed for such issues.
злой_романтик
Here's what's interesting: in the last election, the forum voted for ALL the AK members who were in office at the time, but it didn't choose Vika, with his "beautiful" and "correct" slogans. It turns out that the forum was satisfied with the AK's activities, but no, it's offensive that he wasn't appreciated, and he, as an experienced opposition figure, doesn't calm down, and here's a new topic. This is like in the elections to the State Duma, when a candidate who didn't pass says, "Guys, let me teach you everything, let's change everything, I know how it should be." :)
Such remarks do not do you any credit; instead of discussing the substance, you resort to personal attacks. On the topic of the elections: you, for example, beat Amila by 4 votes and lost to Redwait by one vote, while skillfully voting against both of them in the last days of the vote. Coincidence? I don't think so :D
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