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SoD. Rework for Mage Guild. Is it needed or not?
92 voters
Single choice Public votes Closed 2015-06-09
This poll is closed.
Of course, it’s needed
39.1% 36 votes
No, it’s not needed at all
60.9% 56 votes
In reply to scorp
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#106
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scorp
SoD is invaluable; everything else can be bought in "The Shadow of Death".
SoD is sacred and wonderful.

Added 10 minutes later
"because he has a need for free stuff and the ability to blame the generator for a loss."

There it is! :-D
Сейчас балуюсь этим https://vcmi.eu/download/
За то что нейтралы не бегают за единичкой, для меня это уже стоит того
In reply to Aiwe
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#107
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Aiwe
I don't particularly care about the *purity* of SOD, but I just don't understand how rebuilding will affect balance. Say the 1st player got lucky with control, and the 2nd with army. With rebuilding, that's a 100% win for the 2nd — where's the balance in that?

Rebuilding means losing a ton of days and valuable resources; there simply might not be enough time for it. You still need to take Dragon Fly Hives, Griffin Conservatories, and Dragon Utopias on time.
Aiwe
Yes, there are games where you can't find a certain spell, but I don't remember a single drawn-out game where you don't find at least 1 out of 3, and that's usually enough to cover the opponent.

Just believe me, Dima, either you're extremely lucky, or you have very little experience in ХЛ drawn-out games.))) Mizrael, Maretti, Redwight, Dirty, Dark — games that come to mind right away. Try to win without Town Portal at least against an opponent with full control. And here either there was no control at all, or when it's finally brought in at the very bottom corner of the treasury on the 6th week, it's already just a formality, because a skilled opponent will have eaten the entire map by then!
Aiwe

If there is any benefit, it's only in speeding up the game, and not in balance at all, imho.

Suggest a reasonable alternative for finding control in ХЛ.
Aiwe

Why is no one talking about one-way directions, insane dispersion in layouts, impenetrable blocks? All of these affect the game result far more, or rather simply reduce the chances of winning to 0, and these are more generation bugs, since often the surrender is simply impossible to play.

Because it's useless to try to influence all these things in SOD.
I remember all the talks about morale and the gr. stack... there's simply a considerable number of old believers, and to push through even the slightest useful change, you have to run a massive election campaign(
Aiwe

P.S. Maybe it's worth making rebuilding cost the total amount of a GM, say for rebuilding up to the 4th level inclusive, you need 18 of each resource and 5k gold, or something close to that. For those rare cases when all the secondary Citadels fail. :)

Well, you need to calculate how justified it would be; I would suggest a 1.5x multiplier per magic tier as a reasonable compromise.


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#108
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The two posts before the last one by Ive and Ze are a typical example of the stubbornness of respected Heroes of Might and Magic enthusiasts – they haven't tested the subject of discussion even once, but they are strong in theory. Your speculations and fantasies about how it could be better would make sense if you were at least somewhat competent in the subject.
Даже если вас съели - у вас два выхода:smile19:

Зима 2011-12.
#109
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A great, long-lasting match between two teams is shaping up – a clash between the sharp and the blunt. The condition is – no contact for the first month – basically, a “MOOSHNI LOVA” (a made-up term, likely referring to a strategic approach), where GMs (Game Masters) build up their strategies until they’re fully developed. Whoever loses the match – their point of view prevails!

P.S. In general, everything comes down to money/donations. If someone really needs it, I think the developers wouldn’t object to a “special order” (referring to a paid advantage).
ICQ601845540

Как сделать так, чтобы в подписи картинка рейтинга была кликабельной?
In reply to KobRa_RR
#110
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KobRa_RR

Here, we need to consider how justified it would be. I would suggest a 1.5x multiplier for each magic level as a reasonable compromise.

Why did you decide to reduce the cost of building a guild level? Rebuilding should not be cheaper than building; it should be the sum of all resources required to reach the desired guild level.
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#111
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Surmay is right! If you want to rebuild a Castle in Heroes of Might and Magic IV, you need 8+6+4 of all valuable resources and 5000 gold. Not just the cheap 8 you get for free.
Сейчас балуюсь этим https://vcmi.eu/download/
За то что нейтралы не бегают за единичкой, для меня это уже стоит того
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#112
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A poll of the type:
try it and you'll like it.
Can opinions be expressed here without getting drawn into flame wars?
It's definitely needed, especially since scrolls are allowed when building a guild.
At least because, by the second week, you might have a situation where all the castles are level 3-4, and only one has a level 5 tower, if there even is one.
A hero might say - that's just bad luck, that's how the game is, and I agree, but I'd still like to see a restructuring.

In my opinion, scrolls should be banned altogether, and restructuring should be the basis, it would be much more balanced =)

I haven't found a single good argument against it yet, except for the idea of not turning Soda into a Warlock Tower. Maybe I wasn't looking in the right place.

P.S.: I already understand why Wic voted against it, because he's currently promoting Hota, and balance in Soda wouldn't benefit him.
In reply to =Stinger=
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#113
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=Stinger=
P.S.: I now understand why Wic voted against it, as he's currently promoting HotA, and a balance change in SoD wouldn't benefit him.
:)

I've expressed the idea that the gameplay of SoD shouldn't be changed many times, even before HotA was mentioned. The arguments were roughly the same as they are now.

True, one could say that I was promoting WT back then, but whatever...

However, within such a concept, one would have to explain the fact that new templates were tested in SoD - Mini-Nosta, TDD, Diamond (even if only half of them were used with WT), and even the creation of templates specifically for SoD (Anarchy). And drawing mirror maps for SoD is probably also some kind of cunning plan by Wic.

No, I understand that people tend to judge the motivations of others primarily based on their own, but this path is often further from the truth than it is close to it.
In reply to =Stinger=
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#114
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=Stinger=
A poll of the type:
try it and you'll love it.
Exactly. It reminds me of childish whims like "I don't like watermelon because it's green/striped/has seeds, etc., and therefore I'm not going to try it."
You can persuade a child through compromise or minor blackmail)). It's more difficult with grown-up "Heroes" players - they will argue until they are hoarse, even without trying a single thing:D
Даже если вас съели - у вас два выхода:smile19:

Зима 2011-12.
In reply to Javdet
#115
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Javdet
Your speculations and fantasies about how it would be better would make sense if you were at least somewhat knowledgeable about the subject of the dispute.
Honestly, after such words, I don't even want to engage in further discussions about this.
Do whatever you want.
Когда рестартов не осталось, обязательно ждите Гурниссона без балисты:D

Комплимент который сделал мой день:
Катя ЭПИК барышня) вы бы видели как пялились на её сиськи молодёж) я та с девушкой был) но всё равно пялился ) потому что хорошие) (с) Browser

Слабая раздача, которую заиграл исключительно из-за колпака на 111. (с) Сатир

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#116
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Javdet
Exactly. It reminds me of childish whims like "I don't like watermelon because it's green/striped/has seeds, etc., so I'm not even going to try it."
A child, by the way, can be persuaded through compromise or mild blackmail. With adult Heroes players, it's more difficult — they'll argue themselves hoarse without even lifting a finger to give it a taste :D
Actually, the main question should be: how long have people been playing SoD? 15 years, and it hasn't changed! But WHY SHOULD IT CHANGE??? It's one thing when there are various improvements in the HD mod for the sake of better gameplay, but it's another thing entirely to change the game's dynamics — where you go into Jebus Cross knowing for sure that there's a Slow spell for mass ground units, or go into Griffin Conservatory knowing there's a mass Haste since it's granted after the rebuild — and a completely different thing to adapt and survive

Added after 11 minutes
=Stinger=
A survey of the type:
try it and you'll like it.
And your opinion doesn't matter!! Who do you think you are?! :D :D :D :smile01:

But to get to the point, are you suggesting, Tyoma, that we change the game's dynamics — specifically what I described above, where conservatories and Griffin Conservatories are taken without losses using mass Slow, is that cool, huh?!

лето 2012.
In reply to KobRa_RR
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#117
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KobRa_RR
when you have resources and stats, but lack control and can't acquire it, and you just watch helplessly as your opponent with control outplays you turn after turn
Here, control can be seen as part of the balance. I've often encountered games where one player has good artifacts, cons, and hives, while the other has very little, and the game drags on to a draw because the second player found control.
Мой ник Heroes, и никто не вынесет меня
Скажу я вам, мои друзья.
Я некромант, я маг великий, и армия моя
Непобедимая, огромная!
In reply to Dark
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#118
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Dark
actually, the main question should be asked: how long have people been playing SoD? 15 years, and it hasn't been changed! AND WHY CHANGE??? It's one thing when there are various improvements in the HD mod for the sake of improving gameplay, but it's another thing to change the dynamics of the game, where you go into Jebus Cross knowing for sure that there's mass slow for land, or going into Griffin Conservatory knowing there's mass

But in essence, Tyoma, you're suggesting changing the dynamics of the game, specifically what I described above, when everything works perfectly, the Griffs and Gogs lie down without losses from mass slows, that's cool, right?!

Edik, how can you not understand. We are talking about giving both players at least roughly equal opportunities in _critically important places for normal play_. Of course, you can play without Slow and without Town Portal, who's arguing (it just won't last long and you'll usually end up in a box...))) It's just that our method offers their guaranteed finding after N amount of time, while at the same time your opponent can have them from a scroll on day 111, and you will struggle, rebuilding, losing guaranteed anywhere from one to six!!! Days. During that time, the game could already be over! And another hero will build Archangels while you're rebuilding, spending valuable resources. Calling this a handout would be quite disingenuous. Now scrolls with Dimension Door/Town Portal, five Griffs next to the castle, troop experience, the absence of morale for neutrals — that's a handout, yes :)


In reply to =Lizard=
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#119
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=Lizard=
In any sport, there are two types of gameplay: 1. For fun. 2. To determine the strongest.
See, you do understand, you just draw incorrect conclusions.

Something to think about: CIS 2011-2013 was held on Wargames Tavern (WT), and there was no alternative championship on SoD (Shadow of Death) of the same scale, nor was one planned. It would seem that these were the rules for identifying the strongest. But... the majority continued to play on SoD.

Another thought: in CIS 2012-2013, mirror matches were played a lot, especially in the semi-finals and finals. And if it wasn't a mirror match, it was 8mm6a. But we open the WT chat and the seasonal games... it's all Jebusick.

Do I need to keep hinting, or will you figure it out yourself?
In reply to aka.Ward3n
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#120
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aka.Ward3n
Honestly, after such words, I don't even feel like engaging in further discussions on this matter.
Do whatever you want.
You know, I've lost the desire too. Banging your head against the wall isn't exactly pleasant.

Just some statistics:
Among those who voted, who are familiar with the topic not theoretically but practically, off the top of my head, 14 people voted. (That's not counting IDD, Scorpion, and Dust-a). Opposed — two, Vic and Dirty. One of them apparently didn't actively use XL templates, the other, Vic, hasn't been an active player for a long time. But, (quote): "Message from Wicc
I myself have written many times about the advantages of the restructuring. And I don't take back my words. For ideal Heroes, the restructuring (or some kind of analog of it) is definitely needed."

There's also the assumption that Hellight is knowledgeable on the subject, but honestly, I don't remember if he played WT on big tourneys, maybe he ran Jebus Cross.
The remaining 35 voters have never tried this restructuring in practice, but for some reason are against it..

Total: 14:1,5. And that's being generous!!!!! Plus, some SoD players have already felt the need for this innovation.
Statistics are a stubborn thing, and here we have a complete rout. The overwhelming majority of players who have dealt with this option want it implemented in SoD as well.

Conclusion: You just need to try it, and you'll most likely like it.
I hope I've made my point clear?

Added after 17 minutes
Sorry, FAVorite also played WT. But I also missed U2noob)))
Plus another 1-1
Даже если вас съели - у вас два выхода:smile19:

Зима 2011-12.