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In reply to Hiwanna
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#6694
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I'll say it again. About 3 days ago, or whenever it happened, I already wrote that such exploitation of bugs can still be somehow justified if a player wants to turn a losing game into a stalemate. Is it unsportsmanlike? - yes. But okay, they took advantage of a loophole. It's on their conscience, etc., etc. But they definitely didn't earn that win, by consuming an XL-sized item in one turn. There shouldn't be a win here, damn it!!! Definitely not!
If I have any questions for the admins, it's only one: why wasn't this prohibited before? But overall, they handled it well. It's a Solomon-like solution.
Даже если вас съели - у вас два выхода:smile19:

Зима 2011-12.
In reply to Javdet
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#6695
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Javdet
The counter-question is: what was Comrade Evgeny thinking about at that moment? Did he want to put on a show? - He succeeded. At the same time, he violated the rule of fair play.

AK did not answer Nitro's question about whether Redwhite violated the rule of fair play. And it's understandable why: if he violated it, he should be punished, and more severely than just replaying the game. If not, then to be consistent, similar bugs should be allowed in the future - at least not punished for their use.
Hiwanna
Then read about, for example, the Tournament game that was a favorite between Svarog and Maydak.

It was a seasonal game, but that's not the point. The important thing is that the members of AK were aware of this bug, and some of them expressed approval regarding its use.
Hiwanna
If AK had supported Redwhite, and only THEN officially banned it in the rules (although, in my opinion, such a decision should be made by the entire community in an open vote), so that this bug would not be used in the future, then your position would be absolutely correct.
But to change the rules like this - just because you want to and change them - is simply ridiculous :smile52:

We basically lack a clear mechanism for making changes to the rules. On some issues, AK makes the decision itself (banning air control on Panic and Balance maps), on some, AK cannot start making a decision until someone submits a complaint to AK (the Shaman's ability bug), and on some, a vote is actually held (redrashing on HL+U). And nowhere in the rules is it written how it should actually be. As a result, it turns out that all the powers are with AK, and the members of AK, in turn, are elected by other members of AK, and we don't need to continue from there :D
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In reply to Javdet
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#6696
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I don't know what the other members of the Arbitration Committee will say, but I'll try to explain my point of view and why I voted for a rematch. As mentioned above, in my opinion, there is no clear-cut solution here. On the one hand, the rules in effect at that time were not violated, but on the other hand, I also cannot endorse awarding victory obtained in this way. According to legal principles in real life, since it wasn't prohibited at that time, it can't be judged. But we are playing a game, and in my opinion, some other rules should apply here. Suppose someone else finds some kind of bug, let's say, how to get 100 million Archons or how to escape with an army without any money. Is that possible? Yes, it is. And suppose this person wins a tournament in this way. Wouldn't that be great? The people who create games make mistakes, and that's why bugs exist, have existed, and will continue to exist. It's impossible to keep track of everything. Humanity has been writing its laws for hundreds of years, and I think that first there was, let's say, murder (in the Bible, for example, Cain killed Abel and was exiled, even though at that time he didn't violate any existing law) or the first theft. I think that first the thief was caught and beaten, and only then did the law come out that stealing is bad :D. So, it's not at all a fact that the law came first, and then the crime.
In short, call it what you want, but I didn't see any other solution.
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Весна 2012.
In reply to злой_романтик
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#6697
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evil_romantic
I don't know what the other members of the AC will say, but I'll try to explain my point of view and why I voted for a rematch. As mentioned above, in my opinion, there is no clear-cut solution here. On the one hand, the rules in effect at that time were not violated, but on the other hand, I cannot endorse awarding victory obtained in this way. According to legal principles in real life, if something wasn't prohibited at the time, you can't be punished for it. But we're playing a game, and in my opinion, some different rules should apply here. Suppose someone else finds some kind of bug, let's say, a way to get 100 million Archons, or how to bribe your way out of a battle with an army, but without any money. Is that possible? Yes, it is. And suppose this person wins a tournament using this method. Wouldn't that be great? The people who create games make mistakes, and that's why bugs exist, have existed, and will continue to exist. It's impossible to keep track of everything. Humanity has been writing its laws for hundreds of years, and I think that, for example, murder came first (in the Bible, Cain killed Abel and was exiled, even though he didn't violate any existing law at the time), or the first theft. I think that first, the thief was caught and beaten, and only then did the law come out that stealing is wrong :D. So, it's not necessarily true that the law came first, and then the crime.
In short, call it what you want, but I didn't see any other solution.

Roman, this isn't the first time this bug has been mentioned. You can't deny that, can you? And you can't deny that the AC hasn't taken any action regarding this bug until now. You also can't deny that this isn't some super-new bug that no one knew about, that just appeared out of nowhere. Everyone knew about it, and no one wanted to do anything or make a decision. And when the issue became critical, you made a decision in favor of the injured party. The following points are unclear:
a) Why, knowing about the bug, were any actions taken only now?
b) Why, if everyone knew about this bug and it was NOT PROHIBITED, and therefore PERMITTED, according to your own established rules, was the decision made to have a rematch? We can agree that
after you made this decision, further use of the bug became illegal. But how should this affect the game that happened BEFORE this incident?
In this case, it would be appropriate to sympathize with the injured party, as the flaw in the tournament rules is the fault of the AC. But to order a rematch for Redwait because of your own incompetence is just another proof of the incompetence of the tournament organization
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In reply to злой_романтик
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#6698
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I've been observing this situation for a long time! But now, it's getting out of hand! What is this nonsense? What kind of replay are we talking about? If that's the case, let's not move one square on the tactics screen. Here, people are trying to argue about archers or buying units without money, but these aren't unknown bugs; this one has been known for 100 years, it's been discussed in many places, and it wasn't prohibited! It was allowed! I would even consider it a feature. They banned it, fine, but why the replay?

P.S. I think Javdet played a role here; he started actively influencing AK, and they, exhausted, gave up.
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In reply to Hiwanna
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#6699
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evil_romantic
After the Redwhite-Nitro AK match, a decision was made: the match must be replayed, and the hat bug is now prohibited.
They could also ban AOTD with KSH...
And in general, there was a similar case recently in the CS scene, when, due to a bug (feature???) in the map, which only one team found, that team was given a technical loss, and a year before that, in Dota, a team that used a bug was not penalized; they were only told to warn the management next time, and it would then decide whether to allow the use of that feature or not...
I think the warning option is more fair, but AK issued the verdict as it saw fit.
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In reply to MuLLIyTa
#6700
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Hiwanna
a) Why, knowing about the bug, were any actions taken only now?
b) Why, if everyone knew about this bug and it was NOT PROHIBITED, and therefore PERMITTED, according to your own established rules, was the decision made to replay the game?
Well, it's quite simple (even though I wasn't asked):
a) to simplify the rules
b) out of a principle of political correctness.
648050691
In reply to Kilgor
#6701
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Kilgor
I've been observing this situation for a long time! But now, I'm fed up! What is this nonsense? What kind of replay are we talking about? If that's the case, let's not move one cell forward in tactics? Here, they are trying to argue about archers or buying out units without money, but these are not known bugs; this one has been known for 100 years, many people have talked about it, and it was not prohibited! It was allowed! I would even equate it to a feature. They banned it, okay, but why the replay?

P.S. I think Javdet played a role here; he actively started brainwashing AK, and they, tired, gave up.
+1000, I completely agree.
In reply to Kilgor
#6702
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Kilgor
I've been observing this situation for a long time! But now, it's gone too far! What is this nonsense? What is this re-evaluation? If that's the case, let's not move one cell on the tactics screen? They're trying to argue about Archmages or buying out units without money, but these aren't unknown bugs; this one has been known for 100 years, it's been discussed in many places, and it wasn't prohibited! It was allowed! I would even consider it a feature. They banned it, okay, but why the re-evaluation?

P.S. I think Javdet played a role here; he actively started influencing AK, and they, exhausted, gave in.
Absolutely +1. They knew about it and didn't prohibit it = they allowed it! You can change the rules for other games, but not for this one...
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#6703
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zoog
Well, it's quite simple (although no one asked me):
a) to simplify the rules
b) out of a principle of political correctness.

Simplifying the rules during the tournament? No, it's just negligence, and nothing more.
Out of a principle of political correctness? Well, if Nitro were black, then yes...
If we're being serious, what does it mean to do something out of a "principle of political correctness?" Please explain.
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In reply to Hiwanna
#6704
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Here, by the way, they also talked about making decisions based on common sense for tournament matches, considering each specific situation... remembering the match between Lizard and Toganash, where, in a completely won game for Lizard, due to a technicality in the rules in a situation that had absolutely no impact on the outcome: after an arrow failed to hit due to resistance and a bribe, they inexplicably decided to replay the game... It becomes especially amusing.
In reply to Hiwanna
#6705
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Hiwanna
Simplifying the rules during the tournament?
Over time - the first quote was from the 2010 rules.
Is it out of a principle of political correctness? Well, if Nitro were black, then yes...
If we're being serious, what does it mean to do something out of "political correctness"? Please explain.
You know so little about [del]the peaceful atom[/del] political correctness! Every weak/sick/ugly/stupid person deserves [del]the highest priority[/del] respect and love. In this case - the loser.
648050691
In reply to Hiwanna
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#6706
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evil_romantic
I don't know what the other members of the AC will say, but I'll try to convey my point of view, explaining why I voted for a rematch. As mentioned above, in my opinion, there is no clear-cut solution here. On the one hand, the rules in effect at that time were not violated, but on the other hand, I also cannot award victory obtained in this way. According to legal laws in real life, of course, if it wasn't prohibited at that time, then it cannot be judged, but we are playing a game, and in my opinion, some other rules should apply here. Let's say someone else finds some kind of bug, for example, how to get 100 million Archons or how to bribe your way out of a battle with an army, but without money – is that possible? Yes, it is. And let's say this person wins a tournament in this way – wouldn't that be great? The people who create games make mistakes, and that's why bugs exist, have existed, and will continue to exist; it's impossible to keep track of everything. Humanity has been writing its laws for hundreds of years, and I think that, for example, murder (in the Bible, Cain killed Abel and was exiled, even though at that time he did not violate any existing law) or the first theft – I think that first, the thief was caught and beaten, and only then did the law come out that stealing is bad :D So, it's not at all a fact that the law came first, and then the crime :)
In general, call it what you want, but I didn't see any other solution.

100 million Archons and bribing without money are new bugs.
But SHA is an old and well-known feature; I even read in discussions the opinion of authoritative members of the community that it is allowed for use.
These are not the same thing.

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In reply to Hiwanna
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#6707
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Kilgor
P.S. In general, I think Javdet played a role here; he actively started influencing AK, and they, tired, gave in.
This deserves a ban for blatant lies. Nothing like that happened. No one pressured or persuaded AK; there's no need to stir up trouble.

As for the decision itself, I don't entirely agree with it, but it was made by a majority vote.

I would like to separately note Mr. Hiwanna:
Hiwanna
It would be appropriate to sympathize with the aggrieved party in this matter, as a flaw in the tournament rules is AK's fault. But to order a replay of Redwait's game due to one's own incompetence is just another proof of the tournament organization's illiteracy.
I think you're taking on too much; it's not up to you to decide where AK is at fault and where it isn't. Also, reasoning about competence and literacy/illiteracy is also not within your competence. AK is guided not only by the current rules but also by common sense. In this situation, canceling the result due to a bug, especially a critical one, is quite reasonable, although I don't agree with this decision, but that doesn't make it somehow inadequate.

P.S. I myself suffered in a similar way when I used the Berserker bug, which later turned out to be allowed.
In reply to Hiwanna
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#6708
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Kilgor


P.S. In general, I think Javdet played a role here; he actively started influencing the members of the Alliance of Kings, and they, exhausted, gave up.
Thanks, that was funny.
It's nice to feel like a gray cardinal in Hv:D, even though I only communicated with one member of the Alliance of Kings, who had already decided on his position at that time.

And by the way, next time, use the correct case endings;)

Guys, we need to finally decide about the features and bugs. The ability to clear a map in one turn should definitely not be a feature.

Added 8 minutes later
Dirty_Player


P.S. I myself suffered the same way when I used the berserker bug, which later turned out to be allowed.
I remember that case well, and it was a very decent act, complicated by the fact that he was also the organizer of the tournament.
Даже если вас съели - у вас два выхода:smile19:

Зима 2011-12.