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Posts from God... Truth or fiction?

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#199
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Oh, my God!! I'm giving a "+" to your "reputation" without even reading it))).
ДУРАКОВ ОЧЕНЬ МАЛО, НО ОНИ РАССТАВЛЕНЫ ТАК ГРАМОТНО, ЧТО ВСТРЕЧАЮТСЯ НА КАЖДОМ ШАГУ.
Прошу прощения у Arandor-а. Я слишком резко отреагировал. Просто очень люблю спорт. Извини...[/SIZE]
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#200
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:) Nowizard, what does the authenticity of the writings have to do with it? Firstly, we will never be able to verify this, and secondly, there is no need to verify it. What has come down to us from the history of both Christianity and paganism provides a quite complete picture of both. I am referring to a much deeper antiquity, about which there is also considerable evidence. In addition, many Orthodox holidays continue to be interpreted in their pre-Christian equivalent: Red Hill, Protection of the Theotokos, Presentation of Jesus at the Temple, Maslenitsa, etc. Ivan Kupala remains Ivan Kupala.
Настоящие герои - не те, пред кем мы преклоняемся, а те, кого мы оплевываем...[/COLOR]
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"So much has gone
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David Bowie
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#201
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Ganymed;77274
:) Nowizard, what does the authenticity of the writings have to do with it?
Firstly, we will never be able to verify this, and secondly, there is no need to verify it. What has come down to us from the history of both Christianity and paganism provides a quite complete picture of both.

I am referring to a much deeper antiquity, about which there is also considerable evidence. In addition, many Orthodox holidays continue to be interpreted in their pre-Christian equivalent: Krasnaya Gorka, Pokrov, Sretenskaya, Maslenitsa, etc.
Ivan Kupala has remained Ivan Kupala:)
You only cite Russian folk holidays, which simply managed to take root during the time when paganism existed in Russia. And regarding antiquity, you know, the golden calf was made by people as early as three thousand years before the birth of Christ, if not more;)

Regarding history, any chronicle was written under the direction of the authorities of the respective country. Don't confuse history and reality. In Aztec "history textbooks," the Spanish are pale-faced demons who came with fire and steel, while in Spanish textbooks, the colonists are great explorers. Read Soviet history textbooks, and it turns out that before the Soviet era, there was nothing but worldwide evil:D Bourgeoisie and imperialists!:)
Бог есть любовь
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#202
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Nowizard;77276
As for the antiquity – you know, the golden calf was created by people as early as three thousand years before the birth of Christ, if not more;)

As for history – any chronicle was written under the guidance of the authorities of the respective country. Don't confuse history and reality. In Aztec "history textbooks," the Spanish are pale-faced demons who came with fire and steel, while in Spanish textbooks, the colonists are great explorers. Read Soviet history textbooks – it turns out that before the Soviet era, there was nothing but worldwide evil:D Bourgeoisie and imperialists!:)

Regarding antiquity... If you have read about Arkaim in the Chelyabinsk region, which is older than the Egyptian pyramids, I think you would agree that our ancestors were worthy of being called a civilized people with a very accurate calendar and an observatory that amazes modern scientists. And this was during the period of paganism, and thousands of years before the introduction of Christianity in Russia. This is a true history because it is confirmed by facts, and as for the so-called chronicles, I agree that they were "written" at all times by those in power. So, much in the history, not only of Russia but also of the world in general, can be questioned. For example, the well-known chronicle history of Russia begins with the Baptism, as if before that, Russia was something primitive and incoherent. This suggests your analogy with Soviet history;)
It is clear that a "new broom" sweeps away everything that was before it, and Soviet ideologists are by no means the pioneers in this.
Настоящие герои - не те, пред кем мы преклоняемся, а те, кого мы оплевываем...[/COLOR]
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"So much has gone
and little is new"

David Bowie
#203
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Why wasn't this topic placed in the philosophy section?
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#204
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Ganymed;77371
Regarding antiquity... If you've read about Arkaim in the Chelyabinsk region, which is older than the Egyptian pyramids, I think you'd agree that our ancestors deserve to be called a civilized people with a very accurate calendar and an observatory that amazes modern scientists. And this was a period of paganism, thousands of years before Christianity was introduced in Russia. This is a genuine history because it is confirmed by facts, and as for the so-called chronicles, I agree that they were "kept" at all times by those in power. So, much in the history not only of Russia but of the world in general can be questioned. For example, the well-known chronicle history of Russia begins with the Baptism, as if before that, Russia was something primitive and incoherent. This suggests your analogy with Soviet history;)
It is clear that a "new broom" sweeps away everything that was before it, and Soviet ideologists are by no means the pioneers in this.
I agree, Christianity was not originally present in Russia, but faith in God (Judaism) has existed since the beginning of time.
Бог есть любовь
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#205
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Nowizard;77272

Now, about the pagans. God in any religion is something higher, perfect. Even in Buddhism, where gods are not immortal, nevertheless, the deities represent a foundation, an example to follow. In paganism, there are always many gods, and they are all perfect. Isn't that too many perfections?:) Moreover, they practically do not differ from people - except perhaps in strength and immortality. They marry, divorce, kill each other (despite their immortality?:D), plot intrigues, cheat, are jealous, and take revenge. How can a group of people who are completely incompatible with each other maintain balance in the world? With such gods, I think the end of the world would have come long ago.:)

Paganism is the oldest monotheistic religion. In paganism, God is one, and he is perfect. Since the world is what God created from himself, then the world is God, and everything in the world are gods. For example: the elements are gods, people are gods, animals are gods, but they are not Gods as the beginning of the world; they are God's creation. The fact that the gods marry, plot intrigues, and so on is an illustrative part of the real life of people-gods, which has less of a narrative or functional meaning and more of an instructive one.
Paganism is surprisingly simple and universal. For example, any pagan from Europe will understand a pagan from an African tribe. In paganism, there is no concept of proselytism, i.e., imposing one's faith on another under the guise of truth. Accordingly, there is no religious hostility or religious hatred. This is a historical fact. There is not a single known case in history of pagan tribes warring with each other on religious grounds. Everyone respected the gods of others simply because they saw them as their own gods, only with different names. And this is also because all these gods are the creation of the One God.
Now let's take the history of the Jewish religion. The entire Bible is simply filled with wars precisely on religious grounds. After a 40-year campaign, Moses was told to destroy all the inhabitants (the indigenous people) of the land of "milk and honey." There is nothing to say about how humane this "god" is.
All the psalms only talk about the ungodly, those who do not know God, and call on God himself to punish them for it.
What do we have as a result? Constant wars on religious grounds, religious hatred, intolerance, the imposition of the "true" faith by fire and sword, the Inquisition, the fight against heretics, schisms, and so on. The words of Jesus come to mind: "By their fruits you will know them." So what? These are the fruits. And what do we attribute all this to? Of course, to the "scapegoat," the enemy of mankind, the devil. It turns out that these are his dirty deeds, and not those who "rightly" honor God.
In all this, there is pride, self-satisfaction, and self-praise. "We are right, but the devil is not asleep..."
Only it seems to me that this is a logical consequence of the fact that man is "created" by God, and not "born." This is how "slaves" act, not "sons." In all this, there is a low, hypocritical, animal SLAVERY.
Настоящие герои - не те, пред кем мы преклоняемся, а те, кого мы оплевываем...[/COLOR]
-----------------------------
"So much has gone
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David Bowie
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#206
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Ganymed;77379
Paganism is the most ancient monotheistic religion. In paganism, there is one God, and He is perfect. Since the world is that which God gave birth to from Himself, then the world is God, and everything in the world is gods. For example: the elements are gods, people are gods, animals are gods, but they are not Gods as the origin of the world; they are God's offspring. The fact that gods marry, weave intrigues, and so on, is the descriptive part of the actual lives of people-gods, serving not so much a narrative or functional purpose, but a moral one.
Paganism is surprisingly simple and universal. For example, any pagan from Europe would understand a pagan from an African tribe. In paganism, there is no concept of proselytism, i.e., imposing one's belief on another under the guise of the truth. Accordingly, there is no enmity on religious grounds or religious hatred. This is a historical fact. There is not a single known instance in history where pagan tribes fought each other on religious grounds. Everyone respected the gods of others simply because they saw their own gods in them, only called by different names. And this is also because all these gods are essentially the birth of the One God.
Now let's take the history of the Jewish religion. The entire Bible is simply filled with wars specifically on religious grounds. After a 40-year journey of the Jews, Moses was told to destroy all the inhabitants (indigenous) of that land where there is "milk and honey." Nothing left to say, what a humane "god".
All the psalms speak only of the ungodly who do not know God and call upon God Himself to punish them for this.
What is the result? Constant wars on religious grounds, religious hatred, intolerance, the imposition of the "true" faith by fire and sword, the Inquisition, the fight against heretics, schisms, etc. and so on. The words of Jesus come to mind: "by their fruits you shall know them." Well? These are the fruits. And what do we blame all this on? Of course, on the "scapegoat," the enemy of the human race, the devil. This, it turns out, is his dirty work, and not at all those who "rightly" honor God.
In all this is pride, self-indulgence, and self-praise. "We are right, it's just that the devil never sleeps..."
It only seems to me that this is a logical consequence of the fact that man was "created" by God, and not "born." This is how "slaves" act, not "sons." In all of this is low, hypocritical, animal SLAVERY.
Let's start with the fact that the Orthodox Church NEVER carried out any crusades, and it knows about the Inquisition only from foreign history textbooks. I don't recall God ordering Moses to destroy the inhabitants of the country he was leading them to; I request a direct quote. You speak of hypocrisy, pride, and lies, yet it is precisely these vices that are punished first and foremost by God. If a child kicks a dog, people don't say "his parents are brutes," but "the child is a hooligan." There is no need to turn God into a scapegoat; temptation and leading people down the wrong path is the daily work of the demon, that doesn't mean God desires it, it's simply a fact. Why don't you read the Bible for a start? Judging by how you distort the scripture, you've likely not even flipped through it.

As for paganism—so human sacrifices, orgies, and ritual killings of enemies don't count? Pagans have many gods, otherwise they simply wouldn't be called gods. Goddess Aphrodite, god Ares, god Poseidon, god Anubis, goddess Nefertiti... Fine, let's assume One god is supreme and an example to everyone around, the others commit adultery and betray, but here's the funny thing—the most cheerful "extracurricular" affairs and the most reckless punishments were carried out by the supreme god himself! :) Take Zeus, for instance—he cheated on his wife Hera several times—a great role model! :D he chained Prometheus to a rock just because he wanted to help humans, Zeus's own offspring—a blessing, of course, a blessing! Even in those pagan religions where the supreme god is "sinless," there are still contradictions that deny the very existence of these "gods." According to ancient Egyptian myths, Set, the god of darkness, imprisoned the god of light, Horus (I don't remember where) out of envy (again, envy—what better role model? :D), because Set got darkness and Horus got light. Horus is still languishing there, and by logic, since he is the god of light, and by your logic—the light itself, then light as such should have disappeared from the earth, for the great Ra appointed no other gods of light (an oversight in the HR department ;)). Ra himself is the god of the sun, and for the Egyptians, the sun and light are slightly different concepts (giving credit to the wisdom of the Egyptians regarding the sun as a star). Well, what can one say—ideal gods! They neglect the children, wander "off-path" themselves, and torture their own offspring... What more is needed for happiness? :smile44:
Бог есть любовь
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#207
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Hmm... have you actually "read" the scriptures yourself? If you had, you wouldn't be asking for a direct link to the passage where Jews were commanded to destroy everyone living in the promised land. They didn't do it, and they were "punished" for it. So, the scripture speaks of faithfulness to God through the extermination of "unbelievers" from within their community. This is the Old Testament. But what about the New Testament? On one hand, it says "love one another," but on the other, it says "the world lies in wickedness." If "the world lies in wickedness," then it is not part of God, who cannot be evil by definition. So how can one love one another in a world that "lies in wickedness"? As for orgies, ritual sacrifices, and the killing of enemies, if you look at history, there is plenty of this "goodness" in Christianity as well. I would like to point out that Christians were persecuted by pagans for these very human sacrifices, according to Roman historians, i.e., pagans believed that Christians drank the blood of infants, and this was unacceptable to them! You'll say it's slander? Yes, it's slander, so why not assume that the orgies, sacrifices, and other abominations attributed to pagans are also slander? You can read about the so-called "devil's everyday work" in the writings of the Apostle Peter, who says that "the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour." Interestingly, where does he walk? In what dimensions? Perhaps it is a metaphor, and the devil is the dark side of a person's soul? His base passions and delusions? It is simply very convenient to talk about "temptations," attributing one's own mistakes to an outside person, supposedly inciting them to commit these mistakes. That is, there is a cunning self-justification in this, which carries the risk that a person will not learn from their mistakes, but will become even more wary of the world, looking for the machinations of this very "outside person."
Настоящие герои - не те, пред кем мы преклоняемся, а те, кого мы оплевываем...[/COLOR]
-----------------------------
"So much has gone
and little is new"

David Bowie
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#208
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Ganymed;77430
Hmm... have you actually "read" the scriptures yourself? If you had, you wouldn't be asking for a direct link to the passage where Jews were commanded to destroy everyone living in the promised land. They didn't do that, and they were "punished" for it. So, the scripture speaks of faithfulness to God through the extermination of "unbelievers" from within their community. This is the Old Testament. And what about the New Testament? On the one hand, it says "love one another," but on the other hand, it says "the world lies in evil." If "the world lies in evil," then it is not part of God, who cannot be evil by definition. So how can you love one another in a world that "lies in evil"?

As for orgies, ritual sacrifices, and the killing of enemies, if you look at history, there is plenty of this "goodness" in Christianity as well. I would like to note that Christianity was persecuted by pagans for these very human sacrifices, according to Roman historians, i.e., pagans believed that Christians drank the blood of infants, and this was unacceptable to them!!
You'll say that's slander? Yes, it's slander, so why not assume that the orgies, sacrifices, and other abominations attributed to pagans are also slander?

You can read about the so-called "devil's daily work" in the Apostle Peter, which says that "the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour." Interestingly, where does he walk? In what dimensions? Perhaps it's a metaphor, and the devil is the dark side of a person's soul? His base passions and delusions? It's just very convenient to talk about "temptations," attributing one's own mistakes to an outside person, supposedly inciting them to commit these mistakes. That is, there is a cunning self-justification in this, which is harmful because a person does not learn from his mistakes, but instead becomes even more wary of the world, looking for the machinations of this very "outsider."
I've already said that I haven't read the Bible much myself, but there was nothing written in it about God "ordering" the Jews to destroy the Amorites. He said, "This land is yours," without saying anything about destroying the local population. The Jews figured that out on their own, although they could have lived in peace with the Amorites. You say that you shouldn't attribute human actions to the devil, but you blame God for human sins. Regarding "the world lies in evil" - that's precisely why you need to love one another. Why love one another if everything is already good? Therefore, God calls people to love, so that they do not sink into evil. The statements about pagans are not slander because they themselves do not deny it. And about the blood of infants - you probably read that in "Soviet" books?:) In Soviet textbooks, anything can be written about God. Regarding the "daily work" - yes, the devil is a spirit, so we don't see him, but he, figuratively speaking, walks among people, looking for vices to latch onto: "That person drinks, let's make him become an alcoholic." There are three wills living in a person: God's will (conscience), the devil's will, and human will (stupidity). You can live in peace and harmony (according to God's will), you can constantly fight and struggle for power by any means (according to the devil's will), or you can cut off the branch you are sitting on (according to human stupidity). For example, factories and plants that could have been made environmentally friendly long ago.
Бог есть любовь
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#209
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To be more precise, this "command" was given to Joshua, since Moses did not enter the Promised Land. If I'm not mistaken, this is in the Book of Joshua; feel free to read it if you wish. The Jews, on the other hand, were captivated by the local women, and therefore did not fulfill the "command," but instead began to intermingle with the Ammonites. I don't blame God for human sins. It just seems that way to you because I allow myself to question the "Holy Scripture." I'm simply saying that the "Scripture" is sacred only when you agree with its consistent development of the relationship between man and God. I presented two paths: pagan and Jewish (Christian, Muslim). For me, the pagan path is more logical and simpler because I believe that God created the world from himself, and the world is part of God, not his creation. Besides, paganism is organically suited to man; it involves understanding God through nature, people, and phenomena, and thus ascending to God's perfection. There is no antagonism towards God in paganism because God is all-powerful and perfect, and only man can comprehend this perfection. In the Jewish path, it's the opposite. God has an antagonist – the devil, who was once an angel and whom God cast into the abyss. But not only that, God decided to make this "fallen" one his tool for "forging" a slave out of man, that is, a being obedient to his will. It turns out that as soon as God created man, he immediately began to subject him to trials(!). This seems illogical for a loving being. "Love believes all things, hopes all things...it does not seek its own...love never fails." Could this be the same God who inspired the Apostle Paul to these amazing words, who, having just created man, immediately subjects him to trials of faith and sends a serpent to tempt him (if this serpent is the devil, then it certainly could not have crawled out of the abyss without God's will; if it is an ordinary "talking" snake, then it could not have spoken without God's will, being a snake)? Something doesn't add up here. It's not me who "criticizes" the scripture; it criticizes itself by describing God as cruel, unfair, and suspicious. If God is like that, then what should man be like? About the "blood of infants," I read it in the History of the Church, published by the Moscow Patriarchate. Regarding free will. Man has one will, and it is free. And this will can make mistakes, desire good, curse, believe, doubt, love, hate, strive for perfection, "go with the flow" – and so on.
Настоящие герои - не те, пред кем мы преклоняемся, а те, кого мы оплевываем...[/COLOR]
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"So much has gone
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David Bowie
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#210
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Ganymed;77457
To be more precise, this "command" was given to Joshua, since Moses did not enter the Promised Land. If I'm not mistaken, it's in the Book of Joshua; feel free to read it if you're interested. On the contrary, the Jews were captivated by the local women, so they did not fulfill the "commandment" but instead began to mix with the Ammonites.
I'm not blaming God for human sins. It just seems that way to you because I allow myself to question the "Holy Scripture." I'm simply saying that the "Scripture" is sacred only when you agree with its consistent development of the relationship between man and God. I presented two paths: pagan and Jewish (Christian, Muslim). For me, the pagan path is more logical and simpler because I believe that God created the world from himself, and the world is part of God, not his creation. Besides, paganism is organically suited to man; it involves understanding God through nature, people, and phenomena, and thus striving for divine perfection. There is no antagonism towards God in paganism because God is all-powerful and perfect, and only man can comprehend this perfection.
In the Jewish path, it's the opposite. God has an antagonist – the devil, a former angel whom God cast into the abyss. But what's more, God decided to make this "fallen" being his tool for "forging" a slave out of man, that is, a creature obedient to his will. It turns out that as soon as God created man, he immediately began to subject him to trials(!). This seems illogical for a loving being. "Love believes all things, hopes all things...it does not seek its own...love never fails." Did this God inspire the apostle Paul to write these amazing words, who, having just created man, immediately subjects him to tests of loyalty and sends a serpent to tempt him (if this serpent is the devil, then it certainly could not have crawled out of the abyss without God's will; if it's an ordinary "talking" snake, then it could not have spoken without God's will)? Something doesn't add up. I'm not "blaming" the scripture; it's blaming itself by describing God as cruel, unfair, and suspicious. If God is like that, then what should man be like?
I read about "the blood of infants" in the History of the Church, published by the Moscow Patriarchate:)
Regarding free will. Man has one will, which is also free. And this will can make mistakes, desire good, curse, believe, doubt, love, hate, strive for perfection, "go with the flow" – whatever happens, happens.
You only "blame" the scripture in cases where God punishes, but God doesn't only send trials to man; or do you want life to be nothing but a bed of roses? Earn it. It's not the scripture that describes God as cruel and unfair (excuse the pun), but you do in your post. About the blood of infants – it was printed in Soviet times, of course. I have a little book at home, written by the "church" in 1972. It's about sacrifices and other nasty things, in which the "church sincerely confesses":D It's not a book, it's a joke! Where is it written that God, as such, set the serpent on Adam and Eve? God created all the conditions for a normal life for Adam and Eve; the only test was not to touch the forbidden fruit. God did not stop the serpent because he BELIEVED in people. He trusted people and still trusts them; people have betrayed him a thousand times and are still complaining, saying, "You are cruel, you don't let us live well." But do you really think you deserve a good life? In man, there are actually three wills. Two of them are not his own. These are the angel on the right shoulder and the devil on the left. The angel tells you to give alms to the beggar, the devil tells you to send her away. Which decision to make depends on the third will, your own.
Бог есть любовь
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#211
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Buddha... the path begins with acknowledgment...
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#212
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Let's start with the fact that Judaism is not the original religion of the Jews. Before Judaism, the Jews were pagans just like the surrounding tribes. The adoption of a single faith can be traced back roughly to the time of Kings David and Solomon. Regarding the preceding period, things are mentioned that contradict monotheism. For example: the quote I already cited, "Man has become like us," mentions of Abraham's sacred Grove, Moses' burning bush, and the golden calf.
So it is foolish to say that Judaism is the original faith of the Jews. They simply eradicated most of their pagan customs (but far from all).
And therefore, paganism can be viewed as a much more ancient religion.
As for the non-violence of the Orthodox Church. Read the history of Siberia during the period of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. There was such forced conversion of indigenous peoples to Orthodoxy. And what about the struggle against the Old Believers? And the intolerance toward other religions?
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#213
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AlexeyPank;77549
Let's start with the fact that Judaism is not the original religion of the Jews. Before Judaism, the Jews were just like the surrounding tribes – polytheists. The adoption of a single faith can be attributed to the time of Kings David and Solomon. There are mentions of things from the preceding period that contradict monotheism. For example: the quote I already provided, stating that "Man has become like us," mentions of Abraham's sacred grove, Moses' burning bush, and the golden calf.
So, it's foolish to say that Judaism is the original faith of the Jews. They simply eradicated most of their pagan customs (but not all).
Therefore, paganism can be considered a much older religion.
Regarding the non-violence of the Orthodox Church, read the history of Siberia, the period from the late 19th to early 20th centuries. There, forced conversions of indigenous people to Orthodoxy were common. And what about the struggle against the Old Believers? And the intolerance towards other religions?
I didn't say that Orthodox Christians never resorted to violence. We don't have intolerance, although people are different. I've said it many times: if a religious person commits a foolish act, it doesn't mean that their God approves of it. Regarding "us," I think I already said that God is a Trinity, so considering such a statement as a sign of polytheism is foolish. The burning bush is a sign, not God. Would you start worshipping a gooseberry bush?:D And the golden calf is just a pile of shiny scrap metal, made by the Jews because they wanted to give God a form. It's clear that Egyptian religion had an influence on them, as they thought that every god needs an idol. Naturally, Moses was angry.
Бог есть любовь

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