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Posts from CHALLENGE The_ CHAMPIONS LEAGUE, The_'s CHALLENGE CHAMPIONS LEAGUE
In my understanding, there's a spirit and essence to the game. The tournament's spirit is inspired by the Champions League, but it doesn't change the essence. If you compare it to any sports game, chess would be the closest analogy, no matter how you look at it. Therefore, I believe that analogies and similar concepts are paramount. Incidentally, in football, teams that make it to the playoffs often bring their second-string players for the final matches, which isn't ideal either! But that's how it is, and yet no one says that such results should be canceled or not counted. And what about when 11 players are defending? Does the overall spirit of the game immediately die because of that? Or do all the other teams start doing the same? Although, of course, everyone chooses their own behavior. Regarding the phrase at the beginning of the topic, which has been dissected into quotes, Namvan's position:
Yeah, we have a similar situation. I currently have 3 points, and my last game is against Vinceras. He has 1 point and 2 games left – against me and Ze. So, if he wins against both of us, he'll qualify from second place based on the Berger score. If we draw, even in a normal game (for example, in our second game, after I took the castle and the chances were almost equal), I would 100% qualify from second place. But, in my opinion, it's wrong to do that when you're taking away the chance of other players in the group to qualify.
I find it very appealing and it fully corresponds to my principles, which is why it's in the title of the topic, but it's impossible and impractical to impose it on other people. Once again, the phrase at the beginning is a message for the players, my personal message, and I really hope that most of them will understand it correctly and the tournament will largely proceed under this principle. Some people find these draws unpleasant, and some consider them a blatant violation, but in reality, they don't violate the tournament rules.
Regarding canceling draws altogether, that's also unfair. What about people who are in a real stalemate? Should they play for another 40 hours without getting any enjoyment from the process?
As for asking them to play, I initially wrote that it would be better to play these matches, but what's the point if they don't want to?
Regarding three or one point, it certainly won't solve the problem, but it will make draws much less beneficial – that's obvious.
P.S. Dear Darkello, write 50 more times about how you warned me about this development, about how you relentlessly messaged me on ICQ day and night, appealing to justice, while at the same time you were being pressured into a draw, put in an impossible situation, and your will and mind were suppressed and overwhelmed, but even despite this, you fought and stood your ground like a hero from ancient ballads, but under the pressure of insurmountable circumstances, you were forced to accept it as a given. Tell us about your nature as the most honest person with the highest moral and ethical principles, with which it is so difficult to live in these difficult times. Lift the veil, dispel the fog, and don't hesitate – write about it in any topic, several times, it doesn't matter if it's relevant or not, the truth must be known to everyone, especially since with each post it becomes more detailed. I think in a few posts it will turn out that I ordered to accept this draw.
I'll share my point of view; I'm against any draws at all in the group stage (they should be banned in this tournament format). Furthermore, I foresee a situation where Vitaly, by winning against several people with draws, secures his advancement regardless, and naturally, I'm discussing the topic of draws, including potential match-fixing, with Ze. He states that this is allowed. Then, what I predicted happens: a person is too lazy to play the games (I don't deny that I couldn't do the same or act the same way) and offers draws to several people. Then, a conflict begins; Ze stands his ground, but the results are somehow canceled, even though he's the organizer. Overall, the situation resembles a Maidan. There's a lack of authority that could take control of the situation and say, "It will be this way or that way."
Dear Ze, "Importance is the shield of fools!" (Montesquieu) So, let's not act smart. You decided to do it your way, so be kind and set the draws, but no?! Don't act smart.
He stands his ground, but the results are inexplicably canceled, even though he's the organizer. Overall, the situation resembles a Maidan. There's no authority that could take control of the situation and say, "it will be this way or that way."
Why the results were canceled is detailed in Pit's post; after our joint decision, I don't understand what questions there could be.
Although spreading misinformation for the sake of it should continue; one shouldn't simply reread a post if something has faded from memory.
He explained in detail why the results were canceled; after our joint decision, I don't understand what questions could possibly arise.
Although posting just for the sake of posting should continue, one shouldn't simply reread a post if something has faded from memory.
Long after our conversation, during your 2v2 game with Amilu, a homunculus contacts you and asks about draws! You publicly state that he absolutely needs to write some kind of report, otherwise you won't acknowledge the draw. He writes it, and you BOTH cancel it. Great, bring your grade book:D
Long after our conversation, during your 2v2 game with Amilu, a homunculus contacted you and asked about draws! You didn't want to post about it, but you publicly stated that he absolutely needs to write some kind of report, otherwise you won't acknowledge the draw. He wrote it, and you BOTH canceled it. Great, here's your grade:D
Read the post from about 5 pages ago, then read it again (it contains absolutely all the information, a comprehensive answer - a wellspring of knowledge that will quench your thirst for justice), and I'm asking you for the hundredth time to stop taking my words out of context, presenting your words as mine, and changing the chronology of events. It's exhausting.
Necryl didn't Necryl, 2k group of skeletons - I attack with shackles - gg.
T.K., after loading, I took auto-pick because of a stupid mistake - we agreed to play for a draw.
Thanks for the game!
Whether a person is right or wrong can only be said when the situation is regulated by certain rules or laws. Otherwise, it is just an opinion, which has the right to exist.
In fact, in our game, there are three possible outcomes: def, lose, draw. Nowhere is it specified within what time frame the result can or should be recorded. Therefore, based on the rules, a draw in round 111 is a possible outcome.
As for the ethical aspect of this issue, it is different for everyone. Vitaly (Gomunguls) and I are chess players, and for us, this is NORMAL. It is normal when a leader secures first place with a draw without playing in the last rounds. In chess, having 7 wins out of 7 games in a 9-round tournament, a player easily agrees to a draw in rounds 8 and 9, making 5-10 moves and spending 1 minute on it. Redwhait HP
If this is possible in chess, it is only because it is not prohibited.
But is it prohibited in our case? Redwhait HP
The organizers' position is now clear. But why are you comparing Heroes with chess if they are completely different disciplines? :confused:
Some people compare Heroes with football (I don't know why, though) and hold tournaments using football systems. In football, it is very common for the last game, which doesn't decide anything, to be played with a 2nd or 3rd team. Is this sporting? Is it fair to the participants against whom the strongest team played?
And also, football is a commercial event, and the game must take place no matter what, because tickets have been sold, a TV broadcast has been announced, etc. In our case, people don't get paid for the game. And our game is not 90 minutes long, but sometimes 9+ hours of personal time that no one pays for.
IMHO.
P.S. The "problem" can be solved by reducing the value of a draw. Not 1/2 of a win, but 1/3 of a win, as in football.
Kostya, as I understand it, the tournament was more associated with football than with chess, and in football, pre-arranged draws are definitely not welcome, and rivals still have to run for 90 minutes, not agree to a draw in the 1st minute :)
Guys, let's distinguish between sports and hobbies? Let's be honest. Football players, tennis doubles, and other examples. This is a sport; a person dedicates themselves to it completely - they go to training, eat properly, and sleep (at the right time) - most of their life is devoted to achieving results in this discipline - such people should not be deprived of motivation. In Heroes, half the time, people are cooking, doing laundry, and doing other things. And if people play tournament games while drunk - I've seen it many times, I won't point fingers. What kind of sport is this? Have you ever seen drunk football players at matches? Heroes is closer to chess and poker? Have you ever played "check, check" when there are three cards in the bank, and one person goes all-in (to avoid increasing their chances of winning)? To avoid offending anyone, let's do as we usually do and vote - is a draw permissible in tournaments without playing, or not?
Guys, let's differentiate between sports and hobbies, shall we? Let's be honest. Football players, tennis doubles, and other examples. These are sports; a person dedicates themselves entirely to it – they go to training, eat properly, and sleep (at the right time) – a large part of their life is devoted to achieving results in that discipline – such people should not be deprived of motivation. In Heroes, half the time is spent cooking, doing laundry, and doing other things. And if people play tournament games while drunk – I've seen it many times, I won't point fingers. What kind of sport is that? Have you ever seen drunk football players at matches? Heroes is closer to chess and poker, isn't it? Have you ever played "check-check" when there's a pot of three and one person goes all-in (to avoid increasing their chances of winning)? To avoid offending anyone, let's do as we usually do and vote – is a draw permissible in tournaments without playing, or not?
This is about the staged approach. Personally, I think that in the group stage of such a tournament, among, let's say, not-beginners, a draw should not be allowed. I doubt that even one draw will occur in a knockout game in this tournament
In group stages, a draw is a must-have; it's not even up for debate, and no one has forbidden it. However, if everyone starts doing it, it will be quite sad, so I suggest introducing a rule right now to reduce the points awarded for a draw... everything should have its limits. If you don't want fair play, you get a third of a point.
P.S. I'll immediately answer a possible question about auto-battles and similar draws, as in the report above: Auto-battles in tournaments are EVIL and not fair play, even with the best intentions! Whether it's a misclick or not, one person makes four minor mistakes and stays silent, while the other uses auto-battle, and suddenly it's a great game. Let's fight against AUTO-scammers! :smile19:
In groups, a draw is a must-have; it's not even up for debate, and no one has forbidden it. However, if everyone starts doing it, it will be quite sad, so I propose introducing a rule right now to reduce the points awarded for a draw... everything should have its limits. If you don't want fair play, you get a third of a point.
P.S. I'll immediately answer a possible question about auto-play and similar draws, as in the report above: Auto-play in tournaments is EVIL and not fair play at all, even with the best intentions! Whether it's a misclick or not, one person makes four minor mistakes and stays silent, while the other uses auto-play, and suddenly it's a great game. Let's fight against AUTO-beggars! :smile19:
You see, in this case, they will all have 4 points, but Darkello and Lebron will also have an additional 0.1 point from the draw. Even though Toganash has a head-to-head advantage against one and a kill/death ratio advantage against the other, he doesn't advance directly because he has exactly 4.0 points, while the others have 4.1, and everyone doesn't care about Toganash's head-to-head record and kill/death ratio. So, no matter how many points you award, points in the group have a stronger influence than kill/death ratios and head-to-head records.
Add. In this situation, any points require Toganash to have one more win to advance ahead of Darkello and Lebron. And that's a lot. The only way is to vote so that this situation doesn't arise in other tournaments. And it's not appropriate to try to figure out who was right, who acted well, and who acted poorly. Duty had a good idea: eliminate everyone, and let them assign draws to themselves; you won't care.
Most likely, in the next Champions League, 3 points will be awarded for a win and 1 point for a draw, just like in football. But that will be in the next iteration. It's impossible to find and fix all the flaws at once.
Eliminate draws - play until there's a winner. Replay until a result is achieved. Those who consistently end up with "draws" in 2-3-n games should be subjected to divine intervention and a severe punishment!
Сейчас балуюсь этим https://vcmi.eu/download/ За то что нейтралы не бегают за единичкой, для меня это уже стоит того
if you don't want fair play, you get a third of a point.
+++++ With this setup, a draw doesn't suit either player because in 2 games, win + loss > draw + draw, and this will force the players (at least one of them) to play for a win.
I don't quite understand why some people want to ban draws altogether.
You could also recall the Croatian national team, which, having qualified early from the group in first place, came to England and won, thereby paving the way for the Russian national team. So, big-time sports knows such cases.
I agree with Yegor that we need to decide by voting whether we consider agreements between players to be normal (and write this point in a prominent place so that there are no further questions), or whether we consider it a slap in the face to the opponent for which they should be punished (and accordingly spend efforts on tracking such instances).
Roger DAltavilla
