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Offline Wicc
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#4598
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Roger DAltavilla
Happy birthday, Wic, I wish you all the best, and most importantly, good health. :)
Thank you :)
Military conflicts occur not only in the areas where the territories of different tribes overlap, but also between different social classes and groups. It is enough to recall religious wars, civil wars, and wars of succession.
Well, if you are going to nitpick at the details of the wording, I will have to write posts twice as long, just to make the wording more precise. I don't do this because I believe that the context of the phrases is clear even without clarification.

It is clear that if a wife hits her husband on the head with a rolling pin or a master punishes a servant, this is an intra-tribal conflict, which is not what we are talking about. At least because the entire discussion was originally about the interaction between Rus' and the Horde, and in general, about the interaction of different states/tribes/territories. And conflicts in such pairs mainly occur on the border of the territories or in the immediate vicinity of it.
Roger DAltavilla
I read carefully and understand your point of view better than you do yourself.
You think that different scientists, based on the same facts, will draw different conclusions. This is fundamentally wrong, but to understand this, you need to master the methodology of history. Of course, I cannot replace an academic course with my examples, but I think that most of those who read this will understand how a historian works. First, scientists collect facts: archaeological, astronomical, geological, and many other facts. Then they put them together into a general picture, where all the facts do not contradict each other, but complement each other. Moreover, this happens under the close attention of critically minded colleagues.
There should be a little less pathos and a little more specifics. If you are familiar with the academic course on the methodology of history, it will not be difficult for you to illustrate with a couple of specific examples how it is possible, without using written sources, to confirm only through archaeological research:

- allied relations between A and B
- regular payment of tribute from A to B
- the existence of direct authority of B over A

// tedious //
By A and B, I mean either states or tribes or other forms of large social entities that existed in the period under discussion.

// even more tedious //
I am not so much interested in general words about how it would theoretically be possible to establish the three relationships mentioned above (I can come up with this myself), but in specific archaeological examples. Ideally, it would be applicable to Rus' and the Horde. But if that doesn't work, examples from other periods of history (600 years old or older) will do.
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Offline PReDS
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#4599
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Roger DAltavilla

Near Katyn, a mass burial site of Polish soldiers was found, which is just over 60 years old; at the time of its discovery, it was even younger. The debates about how to interpret this find constantly flare up whenever someone wants to portray us in a negative light, twisting and manipulating the information to suit their agenda. And yet, you claim that it is possible to draw definitive conclusions based on findings that are over five hundred years old. That's bold.
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Offline Roger DAltavilla
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PReDS
Roger DAltavilla

A mass burial of Polish soldiers was found near Katyn, which is just over 60 years old; at the time of its discovery, it was even younger. The debates about how to interpret this find constantly flare up when someone wants to portray us in a negative light, twisting and manipulating the information to suit their agenda. And yet, you claim that it is possible to draw definitive conclusions based on finds that are over five hundred years old. Bold.
Populists and other small-minded individuals want to use history to paint us in a bad light. For historians, Katyn is a very clear and unambiguous event.

Added 31 minutes later
Wicc

There should be a little less pathos and a little more specifics. If you are familiar with the university course on the methodology of history, it will not be difficult for you to illustrate with a couple of specific examples how it is possible to confirm, without using written sources, only through archaeological research:

- the allied relations between A and B
- the regular payment of tribute from A to B
- the existence of direct authority of B over A

It's easy, but I'm lazy. So, just one example. Moreover, I will manage without written sources, and even without archaeological research.

So - the regular payment of tribute from A to B.
Do you know what started the study (I would even say the discovery) of the Norman conquest of England? It started with the fact that one scholar noticed that in the English language, the names of domestic animals have Saxon origins, and the names of meat from these animals have French origins.
pig - pig
pork - pork
sheep - sheep
lamb - lamb
calf - calf
veal - veal
One people raised the animals, and another ate them. :)
Of course, one fact did not prove anything, but it was added to another fact, then another, and finally, the English realized that England had a glorious history even before William the Conqueror.

P.S. I specifically gave the simplest examples, as in Russian, the name of an animal and meat does not always coincide (beef - cow, bull)
P.P.S. I did not claim that history does not rely on written sources; I claimed that written sources are always verified by archaeology. And the data from archaeology is more eloquent and reliable than any chronicle.
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Offline Wicc
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For now, you've only illustrated with clear examples the thesis that I stated from the beginning. That is, the relationships within compact human communities are quite reliably studied by archaeology, but the relationships between these communities are not very well studied.

I can't think of any other explanation for your persistent evasion of a rather simple and clear question.

Okay, then I'll try to reason it out myself. Let's take the simplest question for analysis – the regular payment of tribute from state A to state B. To confirm this, at least a large number of household items that are produced only in A must be found on the territory of B. Let's assume that such finds exist, meaning that the flow of goods in one direction has been proven.

Now, we need to rule out the possibility of trade relations. To do this, goods characteristic of exports from B should not be found on the territory of A. Ideally, they shouldn't be found at all, as finding them in small quantities suggests that there may have been many, but not all of them have survived.

But that's not enough, as export goods may be among those that don't survive in the ground. Or they may be some kind of services that, in principle, cannot leave any traces. Therefore, it would also be desirable to show the presence of violent actions by B against A – traces of battles, mass burials, and, most importantly, traces of weapons used by B's warriors (otherwise, it could be attributed to internal conflicts). Ideally, it would also be desirable to show the absence or minimal number of casualties among B's warriors.

Another possible factor is to show the prevalence of slavery of residents of A on the territory of B. That is, the factor of their presence there and their low social status. And the absence of such finds from residents of B on the territory of A.

Am I reasoning correctly? Can you recall any A+B scenarios where these or similar conditions are met?
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Offline Roger DAltavilla
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Wicc
For now, you've only illustrated with clear examples the thesis I stated from the beginning. That is, the relationships within compact human communities are quite reliably studied by archaeology, but the relationships between these communities are not very well studied.

I can't think of any other explanation for your persistent evasion of a rather simple and clear question.

Okay, then I'll try to reason it out myself. Let's take the simplest question to analyze – the regular payment of tribute from state A to state B. To confirm this, at least a large number of household items that are produced only in A must be found on the territory of B. Let's assume that such finds exist, that is, the flow of goods in one direction has been proven.

Now, we need to rule out the possibility of trade relations. To do this, goods characteristic of exports from B should not be found on the territory of A. Moreover, it is desirable that they are not found at all, since finding them in small quantities already suggests that there may have been many, but not all of them have survived.

But that's not enough, as export goods may be among those that do not survive in the ground. Or they may be some kind of services that cannot leave any traces in principle. Therefore, it is also desirable to show the presence of violent actions by B against A – traces of battles, mass burials, and обязательно with traces of weapons used by B's warriors (otherwise, it can be attributed to internal conflicts). Moreover, it is desirable to show the absence or minimal number of casualties among B's warriors.

Another possible factor is to show the prevalence of slavery of residents of A on the territory of B. That is, the factor of their presence there and low social status. And the absence of such finds from residents of B on the territory of A.

Am I reasoning correctly? Can you recall examples of A+B for which these or similar conditions are met?
Any high school student can do it.
For example, the first stage of the Spanish conquest of America. American gold items and vegetables, etc., appear in Spain, and in return, there are many corpses in America. And only later, not immediately, colonization begins, when Spanish goods (for example, slaves) appear in America, of course, for the needs of the Spanish.

The Opium War between Great Britain and the Qing Empire
Result:
"The result of the war was the victory of Great Britain, enshrined in the Treaty of Nanjing on August 29, 1842, the payment by the Qing Empire of a tribute of 15,000,000 silver taels ($21,000,000), the transfer of Hong Kong Island to Great Britain, and the opening of Chinese ports for English trade. The British Crown received a giant source of income by selling opium.

The First Opium War became the beginning of a long period of weakening of the state and civil unrest in the Qing Empire, which led to the subjugation of the country by European powers, as well as to the massive spread of drug addiction, the degradation, and mass extinction of the Chinese population. In 1842, the population of the empire was 416,118,200 people, of which 2 million were drug addicts; in 1881, it was 369,183,000 people, of which 120 million were drug addicts."
Interesting trade: exotic goods are supplied to England, and drug addicts are supplied to China. Even worse than tribute.
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Offline Snooppy
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Roger DAltavilla
Spanish goods are appearing in America (for example, slaves).
:smile40: I'm not a racist, but that's hilarious!
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Offline Wicc
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Finally, a direct answer to the question asked.

Though, it’s a bit troubling that the example comes from the documentary era (it’s convenient to adjust them — you know exactly where to look), and that "any schoolchild knows" it, plus the example about the Opium Wars is questionable. It would have been better to pick something from pre-documentary Eurasia. Ah well.

Now here’s a little trick — let’s take modern Russia as State B, and as State A some generalized third-world state, let’s call it Bubustan (too lazy to pick a specific one), and look at the situation through the eyes of 30th-century archaeologists.

Exports from Bantustan to Russia are obvious — well, bananas, coconuts, coffee, watermelons, melons, cotton. Identifiable by seeds in trash heaps. And migrant laborers, identifiable by genetics and anthropology. Social status is also determined through characteristic damage to bones and ligaments and other diseases (indicating occupation) and through the mineral composition of bones (indicating diet).

As for Russian products in Bubustan, they’re hard to find... what does Bubustan even import — petroleum products (don’t survive), pulp and paper products (don’t survive), various consumer goods (China and the like), status consumption items (Europe and the US), sometimes grain (hard to determine the origin). And also weapons — they do survive and their origin is easy to establish.

And here we come to the next point — mass graves with traces on skeletons from Kalash, SVD, Makarov bullets, sometimes Soviet tanks and APCs. Most Bubustans prefer Soviet-Russian weapons — they’re both cheaper and easier to operate.

Well, and excavations in Moscow-Petersburg show a massive presence of Bubustans with low social status, employed in simple and heavy labor.

What conclusion would 30th-century archaeologists draw? Right — Russia conquered Bubustan, forced it to pay tribute, and took slaves there.

What makes the example of the colonization of the Americas good — there, only 2 clearly defined sides came into contact (the others joined later), they had no prior contact (easy to determine the time boundary), and they were at significantly different levels of development (easy to distinguish one side’s artifacts from the other’s).

Actually, there are only a handful of such examples in human history; in most cases, you have to analyze societies that interacted with each other over centuries or decades, evolved together, and moreover the interaction wasn’t 1v1, but within a large crowd of other societies with a bunch of mutual cross-connections (see the example of Russia and Bubustan).

And besides, politics and economics rarely stand still — today a brotherly people, tomorrow "fed up with the churki" and tanks in Tbilisi, and the day after tomorrow a partner in the Customs Union. And all this over a couple of decades, which for archaeology is the blink of an eye.

How to reconstruct all this without written sources... well, no way...
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Offline Ihtiandr
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From the chat:
xxx: I realized that when playing online games, there are only two states you can be in: first, you're a noob and everyone bullies you, and second, you know everything and you're bored. And neither of these states brings any joy.
xxx: I'm going back to Heroes of Might and Magic III.
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Offline Roger DAltavilla
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We can play a game: "Conquest of Bubustan."
The host creates a map with creatures, something fun, like a Diamond map. We gather a team of 4-6 people, and each person takes a turn playing as the red team, one day at a time. The goal: to destroy all the computer-controlled opponents. Just set a longer timer – 15 minutes, so there's time to understand what the previous player was trying to do :smile05:. This is a heroic challenge.
It's even more interesting if we can get two teams: one for the red team and one for the blue team, ideally with both teams streaming the final battle.

Bubustan must be conquered! :smile13:
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Offline rebellious
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Wicc
...
What conclusion will archaeologists of the 30th century draw? Correctly - Russia conquered Bubustan, forced it to pay tribute, and captured slaves there.


How can all this be reconstructed without written sources... well, it's impossible...
And why would archaeologists do the job of historians? :)
With globalization, widespread counterfeiting, and noname products that are identical to the original, specialists in the near future will not be able to determine the country of origin even if they really want to know. Although, archaeologists and historians will probably disappear by that time as an atavism. As for history, it is no longer needed by anyone, except perhaps to tell children as amusing fairy tales. History is constantly repeating itself, all the schemes are systematized. The only thing is that the right to implement and interpret them for the taxpayer or the population of the colonies belongs to very few.
Summer 2013


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Offline Wicc
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rebellious
Why would archaeologists do the job of historians? :)
With globalization, widespread counterfeiting, and noname products that are identical to the originals, specialists in the near future will not be able to determine the country of origin even if they really want to know.
That's what I'm talking about. And God forbid these archaeologists unearth granite-cast writings by Fomenko, Bushkov, and Suvorov; they will then write history based on them. It will be very difficult for them to prove that things were different...
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KobRa_RR
Regarding the events in Ukraine. I ask Ukrainians to answer the questions first, without arguing or insulting anyone! The goal is to understand the situation, not to lecture you or spout nonsense. After all, we in Russia have our own ruler and our own problems! 1. Do you support the current "Euromaidan" or not? What are the differences between it and the previous one, 10 years ago? 2. What do you dislike about the current president? Preferably, briefly. 3. Do you think Ukraine as a whole will benefit or not from joining the EU? Are you aware of the advantages (concessions) that need to be made when joining? Are you aware of the advantages (concessions) of joining the Customs Union? What are these advantages/concessions? 4. If borders are opened, high-quality European goods will obviously flood into Ukraine at prices comparable to domestic ones. Will you continue to support your domestic producers with your wallet? And the rest? How do you think this might affect businesses? Will they stay afloat? The main sales market – Russia – will automatically close (because the Russian Federation fears that cheap goods will transit through Ukraine into Russia). Do you think the EU will allow industries, for example, the automotive industry, to sell Ukrainian products in its countries? How competitive will it be with the advanced technologies of the EU? Will they promote their own manufacturers to provide Ukraine with new sales markets in exchange for the old ones? 5. Why would the EU, which is experiencing a prolonged economic crisis, want to accept new members that will have to be subsidized in one way or another? And why would the USA want this? And why would Lithuania, Poland, and Sweden want this? 6. Do you expect that in Europe (with unemployment exceeding 20%), they will be happy to have labor from Ukraine? And what kind of work will it be? 7. If there were elections tomorrow, who would you vote for? 8. What is your attitude towards the USSR and the collapse of the Union? In principle, answering these questions is enough, and nothing else needs to be discussed. And I ask everyone, especially Russians, to be restrained!

I wanted to read about Dynamo, but now even purely football websites are filled with Euromaidan news. So, this guy in two paragraphs clearly explained what is happening now and gave an answer to your 7th question, which primarily shapes my opinion about what is happening. "Everyone is shouting "Yanukovych out! Yanukovych out!" But what does Yanukovych have to do with it? Stop bleating like sheep. Yanukovych has been disgracing the country for 4 years, why are everyone suddenly protesting now? Why not after the increase in the retirement age, why not after the events in Vradiivka? Because the sheep were told to! The patriots don't even know what they are standing for! "Remove Yanukovych!" Ugh! You're just spoiling the city. We stood like this in 2004, and WHAT? We ourselves worked as slaves for the right person, and we thought we were making a revolution. HA-HA! Even if you manage to achieve Yanukovych's removal now, due to the lack of your brains, it will be even worse in a year. A revolution is when there is an idea in people! Their own idea, what they want, who they want! But just to remove one person, that's not a revolution. You are just a tool for controlling other bandits. Don't flatter yourselves!" "I also don't quite understand how people condemn Yanukovych, like he's a bandit! But they want Yulia, who stole and killed, even if not herself. I clearly don't understand something. Plus the rest. A fascist – one, a brainless puppet, a boxer – two. And a cunning, creepy Jew – three. If there were worthy candidates who were not allowed to take power fairly, I would stand there myself. But I won't even lift a finger for these people. Because at a minimum, they are not better than Yanukovych." http://dynamo.kiev.ua/blog/163781.html
Даже если вас съели - у вас два выхода:smile19:

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Offline Lim4
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"Everyone is shouting now, "Yanukovych out! Yanukovych out!" But what does Yanukovych have to do with it? Stop bleating like sheep. Yanukovych has been discrediting the country for four years, so why are people suddenly protesting now? Why not after the pension age was raised, or after the events in Vradiivka?
Because the sheep were told to! These so-called patriots don't even know what they're fighting for! "Get rid of Yanuk!" Ugh! You're just ruining the city. We did the same thing in 2004, and what happened? We just ended up as slaves, working for some powerful guy, while thinking we were making a revolution. Ha-ha! Even if you succeed in removing Yanukovych now, because of your lack of brains, things will be even worse in a year. A revolution is when people have an idea! Their own idea, what they want, who they want! But just wanting to get rid of one person – that's not a revolution, my dear friends. You're just a tool for other, equally corrupt people. Don't flatter yourselves!"

"I don't quite understand how people condemn Yanukovych, calling him a bandit! But they want Yulia, who stole and killed, even if she didn't do it herself. I clearly don't understand something. Plus the others. A fascist – one, a brainless puppet, a boxer – two. And a cunning, unpleasant Jew – three. If there were worthy candidates who were prevented from taking power fairly, I would be standing there myself. But I won't even lift a finger for these people. At the very least, they are no better than Yanukovych."
If there were worthy candidates who were prevented from taking power fairly, I would be standing there myself. But I won't even lift a finger for these people.
What kind of person is this? What kind of views does he have? He won't go anywhere, he won't do anything, things won't get better anyway. According to his own logic, he should just shoot himself, because he's going to die anyway. He wonders why it's happening now, and not after Vradiivka. So, the patience has run out now. People are having bags put over their heads, young people and students are being beaten with sticks without punishment, and they are being thrown into prisons. Where is your pride? Are you willing to tolerate this? This blogger is the sheep, because he tolerates it. There is raiding and expropriation all around, you can't prove anything in court, and he just sits there and tolerates it. He says he won't lift a finger for anyone – that's sheep psychology! Can't he exist without a shepherd? What about for himself? He doesn't even consider that people are fighting for values, freedom, and common sense, and not for some particular candidate. In short, he's just an ordinary passive nobody, or maybe just a coward. He's afraid of something, he wrote a hateful post with mistakes, including logical ones. Ugh, I despise him.
It's good that there are still men in Ukraine who have self-organized without any opposition, abandoned everything, and gone to defend our freedoms and values!:smile20: Whatever government is in power, it should remember that it is not for us, but we are for it, and it is up to us to decide who, how, and how long should govern the country!
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Offline Javdet
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Lim4
What kind of person is this? What are his views? He won't go anywhere, he won't do anything, it won't get any better anyway. According to his own logic, he should just shoot himself; he's going to die eventually anyway. He wonders why it's happening now, and not after Vradeevka. So, his patience ran out now. People are having bags put over their heads, young people and students are being beaten with sticks without consequences, and they are being thrown into prisons. Where is your pride? Are you willing to tolerate this? This blogger is just a sheep if he tolerates it. There's rampant raiding and expropriation all around, you can't prove anything in court, and he just sits there and tolerates it. He says he "won't lift a finger for anyone" – that's sheep psychology! Can't he exist without a shepherd? What about for himself? He doesn't even consider that people are protesting for values, freedom, and common sense, not for some "pretender." In short, he's just a typical passive nobody, or maybe just a coward. He's afraid of something, and he wrote a hateful post with errors, including logical ones. Ugh, I despise him.
It's good that there are still men in Ukraine who have self-organized without any opposition, abandoned everything, and went to defend our freedoms and values!:smile20:
It seems everything is correct; the people are unhappy, they came out, and they are protesting – good for them... but the question is: if they overthrow the current regime, what happens next? Will those who take their place stop stealing? Will there be less bureaucracy in government institutions? Will they stop taking bribes? Will the police stop acting lawlessly? (by the way, I recently unintentionally compared our police with European police. I saw a couple of times in the Paris metro how plainclothes police officers chased pickpockets through the carriages. This surprised me a lot, because in our metro stations, you can only see police officers at the exit of the escalator, looking around to see whose pockets they can pick. But that's just a side note). Will order be established in housing and communal services? Will the authorities stop hiding behind mandates, courts, and laws written to benefit themselves? Do you believe that will happen? I don't! And I don't see any preconditions that could break up this gang. And even if they are broken up, new dragons will appear, only hungrier...
So, the author is just trying to convey that after changing these elements, the sum will not change.
Lim4
Whatever government there is, it should remember that it is not for us, but we are for it, and it is up to us to decide who, how, and how much should govern the country!
As practice shows over 22 years of independence, the government somehow sharply forgets who is for whom after the elections.
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Offline KobRa_RR
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For those who read between the lines, take a look at the list of "alternative candidates" – is it worth risking freedom for them? Among those deserving some respect, only the boxer brothers stand out, but where can you read about their program?

Added 4 minutes later
After Roma's post, I was upset. Because he is right. BUT he forgot that every person should start, so to speak, "cleansing" with themselves, stop giving bribes, be sensitive to those around them, and so on. I want to say that the problem is deeper; it lies within us. Society has become different, not like it was 30 years ago.


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