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Do you feel sorry because my view on these things is cynical? We're getting old. During the first Maidan, I wasn't indifferent to the events of that time. How did it all end?
I feel sorry because you don't even consider the possibility that some people support the opposition and its representatives not because they agree with them, but because they want to express their hatred towards the current government. To make the government feel it and know that if it becomes too arrogant, the people won't swallow what it tries to force on them, but will take to the streets. Understanding this will keep it in check and prevent extreme abuse of power. But you'll just swallow it :( That's what makes me sad, not your cynicism, which I actually share.
Exactly, I do acknowledge that; take a look at my previous posts. There were also people at the first Maidan who supported the idea. And many of them were my acquaintances.
When a people fights for their rights and freedoms and overthrows a corrupt dictator, it is always a positive thing.
No. Destroying a bad shed doesn't mean building a new, good one. Some people build, some don't, but in any case, after breaking down the old one, you have to endure some discomfort for a while.
The Bolsheviks, after 1917, eventually built something; it took about 10 years to climb out of the mess, and only towards the end of the 1920s did economic growth begin.
Putin & Co. also built something, and it also took about 10 years, with stable growth starting in the early 2000s.
But in Ukraine, neither 10 years after 1991 nor 10 years after 2004 saw any significant progress.
Therefore, you should only break something down if you know who will build it and trust their competence. For example, if Navalny had come to power in 2011, 10-20 years of turmoil would have been guaranteed. That's why I was against it then; Putin, at least, doesn't break down the generally functioning shed. Can it function better? Yes, it can. Will Putin make it better? I don't know. I only know that he won't make it worse, and that's enough for me, as I believe that my personal well-being depends primarily on my own efforts, and not on the results of some government programs. If they don't interfere too much, that's good enough.
There is a festive atmosphere, people are having fun and helping each other to endure until the end. I am with the Ukrainian people with all my heart and feel great sympathy for them; I hope everything will end well and that this will serve as an example for Russia, and we will finally get out of this swamp.
You'll be able to talk when you get out. But all of humanity's historical experience shows that societal progress is almost always not the result of a festive atmosphere and fun (Greece and Spain have already had enough fun), but the result of a firm hand at the helm – a person who understands where he is leading the ship and makes others work.
The people who go to rallies are always a tiny part of the total number of people who agree with the protesters. Some were busy and didn't come, some thought it was useless to go out, some were afraid. In the end, for every 100,000 citizens who are inclined to protest, only one actually comes out (considering the entire population of the country). And the more authoritarian the regime in the country, the greater this ratio. In Ukraine, one and a half million people came out. This means that almost the entire population of the country is opposed to the current government. Therefore, calling the people on the Maidan a "bunch of rowdy idiots" is the same as calling the entire population of Ukraine that.
That's your personal theory. But sociology says otherwise – in any society, at any time, there are always about 5% of chronic oppositionists who criticize any government, no matter what it is, 5-10% who are absolutely loyal to any government, and the remaining majority, who are essentially apolitical, but who are motivated by their stomachs and wallets, and therefore, depending on the circumstances, lean either one way or the other.
And the percentage of fools in all three categories is approximately the same. It's just that in the first category, the average age is lower, so the foolishness is more visible; with age, a person, if not gaining intelligence, at least learns to imitate it better.
No. Destroying a bad barn doesn't mean building a new, good one. Some people build, some don't, but in any case, after demolishing the old one, you have to endure the cold for some time.
How will it be built? The EU will build it for us; they have more experience, and they built it for themselves. :smile04:
In general, there are two ways to grow. Either sell natural resources (Emirates, Kuwait, Kazakhstan, Russia, etc.) or sell manufactured products (China, Germany, Japan, etc.). But we have neither one nor the other. Or does someone think that upon joining the EU, investors will immediately flock in? No way. We need to develop our own, and not hope that a neighbor will build a fence for us.
Will they even be able to build anything? The EU will be the one doing the building, and they have more experience, they built things for themselves. :smile04:
Just because they built something for themselves doesn't mean they will build something for someone else. One could ask what they built in Eastern Europe. For Ukraine, the construction volumes will be even smaller, and the volume of extracted resources will be larger. Simply because the EU has its own growing economic problems, and they need to restructure themselves.
In general, there are 2 options for growth. Either sell natural resources (Emirates, Kuwait, Kazakhstan, Russia, and others) or sell manufactured products (China, Germany, Japan, and others). But we have neither one nor the other. Or does someone think that investors will immediately flock in after joining the EU? No way. You need to develop your own, and not hope that your neighbor will build a fence for you.
There was already a successful historical experience - the USSR. And there, it wasn't the neighbor who built, but they built together with the neighbor. With the EU, such a thing will not work in any case - Ukrainians will never be considered as their own. And in Russia, Ukrainians are still considered their own, even despite all the conflicts and 20 years of independence. A common language greatly simplifies interaction ...
Therefore, you should only break something down if you know who will be building it and you trust their competence.
Wise words! Unfortunately, we don't have such people. Therefore, Wicc
And in Ukraine, neither 10 years after 1991 nor 10 years after 2004, much has changed.
And as a follow-up, about our Guarantor. Take a look at this. It's not even ashamed anymore. And how can you be happy about that?!
Added 6 minutes ago Wicc
And in Russia, Ukrainians are still considered their own.
I respect you, but you're being disingenuous here...
Although, it depends on who you're talking about: if you, ordinary people, live here on the forum, then yes, we respect each other and consider each other our own. But our governments... I, to put it mildly, doubt it... Our government no longer considers us their own, so what can we say about your government... They have already divided you and us a long time ago, and now they have only one headache: not to give us away to the EU... They will have no one left to rob - how can this be possible!!!
Added 2 minutes ago Vatya
How will it be built? The EU will build it for us; they have more experience, they built it for themselves.
Just wait, hold on tight! "A fool is rich in thoughts" - a popular saying
Either sell natural resources (Emirates, Kuwait, Kazakhstan, Russia, etc.) or sell manufactured products (China, Germany, Japan, etc.)
Guys, stop trolling. 80% of the Emirates' GDP is not oil, but tourism. It's absurd to compare them to Russia, where the service sector is virtually non-existent. It's equally absurd to listen to "smart" opinions about our government, president, and so on from people who don't live here. We can endlessly talk about management styles, forms of government, which are better or more effective, about their advantages and disadvantages, but you won't get an objective understanding of the reality of what's really happening in Russia from watching TV.
The real picture is that not only ordinary workers or civil servants are affected, but business is critically affected. In recent years, the government has simply gone wild, and everything that is happening has logical consequences. This "Maidan" is what it is, and there are good things about it. We will all be recovering from it for a long time (the economy as a whole), some will suffer more, some less, but if this is happening, it means that someone is playing their own game, that is, paying for it, using the ideology and personal interests of a few. This abscess will not resolve itself in the coming days. Right now, a lot of people are traveling to Kyiv from all over Ukraine, something is brewing. Many people simply don't have the strength to endure anymore, and business is ready to sponsor the overthrow of the insatiable regime. It won't end so simply, IMHO.
As for our governments... I, to put it mildly, have my doubts...
And governments shouldn't think that way. Big politics is like a chess game – it's mostly about calculation and pragmatism; emotions and sympathies only hinder the process.
For example, if tomorrow the Leningrad Region declares independence from Moscow, the same thing will happen.
Governments shouldn't think that way. Big politics is like a chess game – it's mostly about calculation and pragmatism; emotions and sympathies only hinder the process.
Yes, but it seems like they should be playing this game for the benefit of their voters, not for their own pockets, and after them, even if there's a flood, so be it, right?
Added 4 minutes later Piterius
The reality is that not only ordinary workers or civil servants are affected, but businesses are also severely affected. In recent years, the authorities have simply become savage, and everything that is happening has logical consequences. The Maidan is what it is; there are both good and bad sides to it. We will all be recovering from it for a long time (the economy as a whole), some will suffer more, some less, but if this is happening, it means that someone is playing their own game, that is, paying for it, using the ideology and personal interests of a few. This abscess will not resolve itself in the coming days; right now, a huge number of people are traveling to Kyiv from all over Ukraine, something is brewing. Many people simply don't have the strength to endure anymore, and businesses are ready to sponsor the overthrow of the insatiable regime. It won't end so simply, in my opinion.
Actually, everything will end very simply and quickly now... There is no organization at all. Yanukovich is just waiting for the next provocation to work, and then he will quickly wash everyone away with fire hoses. The most active ones will be arrested (not our "leaders," they will disappear in time into "unknown" directions), and the rest will scatter faster than they gathered, and we will meet the New Year peacefully and calmly.
Yes, but it seems like they should be playing this game for the benefit of their voters, not to line their own pockets, and after them, let the flood come, right?
The flood doesn't happen immediately; the algorithm for gaining power and its consequences was developed several hundred years ago. It involves making many promises, bribing many people, and after coming to power, populist attempts are made in the first six months to a year to do at least something from what was promised. After that, it depends on what happens, i.e., it's all for their own pockets and those of their investors. Before the next election, the cycle repeats, and the essence of further political success lies in finding a golden mean between the greed of power and the ability/willingness of the people to tolerate the objective reality of everyday life.
I wonder, how long does it take to find the golden mean? Do you think we are destined to live that long?
But there's no need to wait long, everything is possible within a single cycle. Any upheavals indicate the failure of the current authorities, or that they miscalculated their strength at the beginning or became greedy during their reign. Perhaps some don't know, but our hero sent his investors packing about a year after taking power and started implementing his own program, and the result is what we see, we observe and discuss.
...because I believe that personal well-being is primarily the result of one's own efforts, and not the outcome of some government programs...
...This is if you were lucky enough to be born in a peaceful (civilized) country where you could receive medical care and regular check-ups from birth until your last vaccination (government healthcare programs), where you were taught to read and write (government education programs), where you could receive help in difficult times and during natural disasters (government social insurance programs)... in a place where you were initially provided with normal conditions for human existence. But in a place like Burundi, the use of one's hands might only be limited to this:
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