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2Wowa: I don't understand why I should make a potentially disadvantageous move just because a bug occurred, which I may not have even intended to trigger.
Why is it a disadvantageous move?
A berserk spell was cast on a unit(s), and there was someone nearby. So, it was clearly planned for only one round, right? Because after the attack, the berserk effect wears off. But the attack that should have happened didn't occur, and the berserk effect didn't wear off. Now, the caster has a choice: either extend the duration of the effect by casting it again, or not deprive the opponent of the opportunity to cast berserk on something in some way, which would have happened anyway if it weren't for the bug.
So, we are, albeit clumsily, mitigating this bug! What is the disadvantage here? Is it the inability to benefit from the bug in the future course of the battle?
you cannot deprive an opponent of control over their units by using a single Berserk spell for more than one round if at least 1 unit under Berserk can hit someone [
and what if your unit has already acted in the round and then Berserk was cast on it, what then? the unit will be under Berserk in the next round as well... and what if it simply cannot reach anyone due to speed, what then? should we give the opponent a whole free turn in the finale so they can heal? seems absurd to me
judging by the video, the Berserk bug wasn't planned at all, but came about spontaneously, so that monarchs could smoke for one turn... although it is strange... I remember I had a game on Jebus Cross with Lebron, quite a while ago, even before his service in the Great and Mighty, when I was playing Inferno against Necropolis. I had an uber chocolate from a bunch of hives, around 70, I think, got swarms. But unfortunately, besides the swarms, there was almost nothing else in the pile. I made a misplay there, and first they outplayed me with Armageddon, leaving one stack of 60-something swarms, which I'm sure still couldn't be killed on 123, if memory serves, plus parameters. But MrFish played it smart — ran up with the horses and Berserked my only stack. And then I watched as my swarms were violated in every imaginable way. So, for me, that was one of the few unknown features that I got in exchange for losing a practically won game, and I saw it not as cheating, but as valuable experience... as long as the use of this bug, feature is not prohibited, it can be used, otherwise we'll end up with some double standards — some bugs can be used, others can't...
Noom
13 years ago
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The downside is that I have to spend a turn with a unit to disperse your stack. I'm not talking about a specific situation – I'm trying to explain that the berserk bug can occur in a situation where there is no obvious way to resolve it in the same way as without the bug. I think a more experienced player can easily come up with a situation where this will happen. Therefore, for each possible scenario of the bug, it is necessary to describe a sequence of actions to get out of the bug for the player who casts the berserk spell. And most likely, in half of the situations, the way out of the bug will be minor, but still disadvantageous for the player casting the spell.
and if your unit has already moved in the round and then Berserk is cast on it, what then? The unit will be under Berserk in the next round too... and if it simply can't reach anyone due to its speed, what then? Should you waste an entire spell slot in the final to heal it? I think it's absurd.
if it has already moved, then the effect of Berserk is considered to take place not in this round, but in the next, as it should be. that is, in the case of a cycle, you need to re-apply its effect to prevent it from triggering in the 3rd round, if you want to, of course. if it simply can't reach anyone due to its speed, then there are no questions, everything works as intended, and the caster has no obligations under the rules.
judging by the video, the Berserk bug was not planned at all, but appeared spontaneously, so that Monarchs could take a break for one turn... although that's strange... .... as long as the use of this bug/feature is not prohibited, it can be used, otherwise we will have some kind of double standards - some bugs can be used, others cannot...
experienced opponents admitted that they planned it because they had the right to do so :( and to take a break, even Blind was enough.
regarding double standards, unfortunately :( a player who personally includes a clause prohibiting this bug in the rules of the offline tournaments he manages, successfully uses it in online tournaments :( as if he is playing a different game. even sadder is that these are the organizers of the tournament :( :( that is, people who are supposed to uphold the spirit of fair play in their tournament in every way. however, everyone has their own understanding of fair play, and I certainly recognize this right. Noom
The downside is that I have to spend a unit's turn to Berserk your stack.
with what unit? the one that was supposed to die in the previous turn? or another, possibly even less valuable one? the situation where the cycle occurs from your own troops can be excluded by adding to the wording "a cycle that occurs as a result of nearby units of the caster of Berserk"
I'm not talking about a specific situation - I'm trying to explain that the Berserk bug can happen in a situation where there is no obvious way to make it resolve exactly as it would without the bug. I think a more experienced player can easily come up with a situation where this will happen. Therefore, for each possible scenario of the bug, it is necessary to describe a sequence of actions to get out of the bug for the caster of Berserk. And most likely, in half of the situations, the way out of the bug will be minor, but still negative for the caster.
the point is that we are talking about eliminating the main evil of this bug: complete loss of control over the battle if this happens (unintentionally, of course)), then here is a suggestion - do not ruin the battle further for the opponent, but redirect the FF (Fast Forward) to a bug-free course. just position the unit that would have died in the previous turn normally, or cast another Berserk if you need it. this will at least eliminate abuse. and situations where the cycle is caused by your own troops are not considered, see above. it's like you're to blame))
I would be happy to review refuting models from players with any experience :)
Noom
13 years ago
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Off the top of my head, I'll remove the Berserk buff one turn later. The downside is that all the spells that were active on my troops will last for one extra turn compared to a bug-free battle, so I'll lose one turn of the spell cooldown timer. Is that acceptable?
It seems that only a mod can prevent abuse. Wowa, I understand your position – I don't think there's anything to argue about here. If you don't agree that any intervention during a battle potentially changes the outcome (significantly or not, depending on the specific army/spells/stats/...), then there's nothing to discuss.
HellLighT
13 years ago
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The saddest part is that if the opposite had happened, and I had somehow exploited a bug to give the organizers an advantage in stats and troops, I highly doubt they would have awarded us the victory, let alone considered any further possible scenarios.
Off the top of my head, I'm removing the Berserk effect one turn later. The downside is that all the spells that were active on my troops will last for one extra turn compared to a bug-free battle, which means I'll lose one turn of the spell cooldown timer. Is that acceptable?
You supposedly lose a round on spells (in this round, you can deal significant damage to the enemy stack with all spells active, easily negating their counterattack). For a unit caught in the cycle, instead of choosing which enemy to attack, it's forced to attack the least valuable target for the opponent. The battle is broken in any case, but it's usually worse for the one caught in the cycling Berserk, as their main stack completely loses a turn, and that's what they're aiming for. So, it's not worth breaking their battle, or even the entire game.
Apparently, only a mod can eliminate the abuse.
That would be great, and as soon as possible, if possible. Otherwise, what should we do in the meantime?
Wowa, I understand your position - I don't think there's anything to argue about here. If you don't agree that any intervention during a battle potentially changes the situation (significantly or not, depending on the specific army/spells/stats/...), then there's nothing to discuss.
Heh, but doesn't the bug change the situation? :eek: Or rather, doesn't it radically change it?! And out of two evils...))))
KobRa_RR
13 years ago
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There's another aspect to consider: everyone will find out about this bug, and it will become a 100% feature.
Noom
13 years ago
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that would be good)) and the sooner the better, if possible; otherwise, what should I do in the meantime?
For now, keep a medal in your pocket (SoD) or an axe around your neck. And monitor the course of battle so you don't accidentally turn into a computer player.
The saddest part is that if the opposite had happened, and I had exploited a similar bug to give the organizers an advantage in stats and troops, I highly doubt they would have awarded us the victory, let alone considered any further possible scenarios.
They would have awarded the victory to anyone else. It seems like your emotions are clouding your judgment.
Ihtiandr
13 years ago
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Wow, you guys really set the forum on fire!))
I just watched the recording of the game, and I'm incredibly impressed! It's the best Heroes video I've ever seen! Huge respect to LeBron and Dirty for putting on such a show! The commentary is great; I didn't even skip the opponent's turns, it was very interesting to listen to the discussions about the plans. And the finale was super impressive! A happy ending, our guys won, although they didn't get married at the end)))
Regarding the arguments – it's clear to me that no one is to blame here. You can't escape from these kinds of game bugs; you just have to accept them and see them as features. And, of course, use them to your advantage as much as possible. Not using them, especially in such a hopeless situation, would be incredibly stupid. And ignorance of the law is no excuse))
From an ethical point of view – I would, of course, offer a replay to a reasonable opponent in a similar situation, but in this specific case, I wouldn't bother. So, I fully support the guys!
The saddest part is that if the opposite had happened, and I had exploited a similar bug to give the organizers an advantage in stats and troops, I highly doubt they would have awarded us the victory, let alone considered any further possible scenarios.
I agree, and I think you would have been criticized for being weak and unable to lose gracefully. But haven't you been officially declared the loser yet? I hope you're right.
Gomunguls
13 years ago
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Group A, those who are ready to play these days, let's coordinate!!! Contact me on ICQ!!!
The saddest part is that if the opposite had happened and I had exploited a similar bug, giving the organizers an advantage in stats and troops, I highly doubt they would have awarded us the victory, let alone considered any further possible developments.
I would be applauding standing for such a beautiful kill of my chocolateGod
destroyed my only stack.
by the way, yes, I completely forgot that I had already managed to do this once before :) but in that game, there was no need to switch to Berserk, because there was Ex-Blade and an ocean of mana, I just wanted to show off a trick.
I would applaud standing for such a beautiful kill of my chocolate.
By the way, I completely forgot that I had already managed to do this once :) In that game, there was no need to switch to a Berserker, because there was an Exalted Blade and an ocean of mana; I just wanted to show off a trick.
Someone applauds standing, and someone lying down.
