Posts from [2x2 Tournament] Resurrection

Let's play 2v2 right now, group stage.

We played what is probably the best game in terms of content and suspense we've ever had in Heroes, and the stream viewers seemed to enjoy it too. The opponents are probably upset, but there's nothing to be done about that...

LeBron (tan, castle, Kaithlin, Ignissa) + Dirty_Player (red, rampart, Mephala, Aenin) def HellLighT (blue, necropolis, Galthran, Halon) + wowa (green, stronghold, Tyraxor) 121 JC-L

We regenned outright trash for the first game; the second generated something relatively decent. I had 2 external dwellings of angels, a horde of Dragon Fly Hives, Kostyan had an external dwelling of unicorns, a level 2 Griffin Conservatory and a max Dragon Fly Hive, plus a super-powered Aenin at level 10 from a prison (Archery, Expert Air, Expert Earth).
Both of our ГО were simple Necromancy-related ones, so overall promising. We couldn't develop a high tempo though, because it took me 4 days to reach the angel external dwellings, and the gold situation was very poor. We pooled resources to build and upgrade Archangels, and gathered 20 Wyverns with +4 Speed and +3 Health. On day 117, Kostyan breaks a ГО with my angels and collects the feathered wings. The opponents got even luckier — Goshan had 8 Dragon Fly Hives (I might be off by ±1), a village in the swamp where they were spawned. As a result, on day 116, Goshan, with 50+ Wyverns in the center, picks up 2 Dragon Utopias, frees a level 20 Halon, gets Nagas and Titans from the chests, and his stats are much higher than ours. But there's nothing to be done, so we go all-in. Kostyan takes my Archangels with Aerie, breaks a ГО, and sits in the central swamp. The next turn, Halon moves in with stats of 6 19 20 100 against our 5 6 6 100. Halon has 53 Wyverns, 2 Titans, 6 Nagas, a handful of Gargoyles and Greaves; we have 10 Archangels, 19 Wyverns, 9 Grand Elf units, and a handful of Centaurs. What happened next — watch the VOD; the fight was quite epic, though I have to admit we used some terrible offline secrets that should probably be banned in online play ;)


Watch live video from mrlefish on TwitchTV

PS This game will be reviewed by the AK. Personally, I think we did everything right — everything that isn't banned is allowed, especially in ВТ :)
PPS The stream is quite content-rich, as it also includes Kostyan's POV and our Skype conversations; it's quite funny in places

LeBron (tan, castle, Kaithlin, Ignissa) + Dirty_Player (red, rampart, Mephala, Aenin) def HellLighT (blue, necropolis, Galthran, Halon) + wowa (green, stronghold, Tyraxor) 121 JC-L

I do not agree, with the use of a bug involving two-hex units and Berserk, where the stack simply stands and skips turns automatically. The judges, who are also tournament organizers and participants, without hesitation, award themselves the victory with the following words:

We were just hoping for this bug; otherwise, we wouldn't have had a chance.

08.01.2013 23:11:34, Dirty_Player: Personally, I think this is a bug, and a serious one. It should definitely be banned. However, since there was no ban yet, I believe that we used it absolutely LEGALLY. That's my position.

We have already contacted the administrators, and we are waiting for their decision, but I would like to add a couple of points that clarify the situation.
Many respected "veterans," whom I until recently considered wise and fair players, decided to use an "unobtrusive bug" with Berserk, citing that "newbies should read the rules"... so, what do the rules say? They state that the "Berserk" spell often behaves strangely and explains that if one of the two-hex units is under Berserk, it can only attack another two-hex unit in the right hex (for the defending hero, in the left hex). The video clearly shows that the centaur blocking the wyvern has that very hex blocked only from the tail! This is clearly a bug, not even described there.
I understand that you want to "make a grand return," show off your skills, or whatever it's called, but referring to the portal rules, which supposedly do not prohibit this bug, even though the tournament post didn't even mention that THESE rules apply, is rather despicable... However, it was discovered that in the game, you can ban the SUPER-BUGGED Courage badge, which blocks some spells, including Berserk!!!! Such a wonderful spell that can simply kill any stack! Maybe next time, I will address you as "Justice itself"?

In general, you showed an excellent game... If the administrators recognize all actions as legitimate and credit the result, I will withdraw from the tournament; my partner supports me in this endeavor... this is not an attempt to beg for a decision in my favor; I simply cannot comprehend how players of this rank can so blatantly use exploits... I hope that the members of the Appeals Committee will all make an unbiased and correct decision... oh, wait, one of them is a direct participant in the process, who personally used this bug, what a pity, what a pity.

What’s the problem? Have you never used, for example, quick battles in Might and Magic, when it’s impossible to achieve the same or better result through manual combat? Have you never used infinite ammunition for ballistas to kill hundreds of golems? Have you never used the ability to view your opponent’s castles in the editor and other similar exploits? Why can’t we use things that aren’t prohibited?

I wonder why the tournament rules don’t include a clause about fair play?

what's the problem? have you never used, for example, quick play in Ulitmate, when it's impossible to win with your fists with the same or better result? have you never used infinite ballista ammo to kill hundreds of golems? have you never used the ability to view your opponent's castles in SoD and other similar bugs? why can't we use something that isn't prohibited?

Are you trying to justify using bugs against a player?)) how clever of you, but this bug isn't part of the game's concept; I don't see any similarities with the game mechanics. Everything you mentioned is either fixed or removed, with the exception of auto-battle (the issue of losses is debatable, by the way).

Hell, maybe I'm getting involved where I shouldn't, but why threaten to withdraw from the tournament if AK doesn't rule in your favor? Why play on a resource whose administration you don't trust?

So, you decided to justify using bugs against a player?)) What a clever guy, but this bug isn't a game concept; I don't see any similarities with the game mechanics. Everything you cited as an example is either being fixed or removed, with the exception of auto-battle (the issue of losses is quite debatable, by the way).

I don't need to justify myself because I don't consider myself guilty. I have nothing against fixing this bug or banning it through the rules, but until I see a clear statement saying I'm NOT ALLOWED to use it, I will continue to do so.
Regarding experienced and new players, that's just your assumption, just like your problem with not knowing this aspect of the game.
P.S. As it turns out, this topic has already been discussed, and they decided not to ban the bug and leave it as is.
Regarding the threats of removing the tournament, lol, no one is forcing anyone to participate.

I think it's not worth arguing. It won't lead to anything constructive. Everyone has their own concept of fairness. In principle, if a bug is really serious (even if it's rare), and the judges know about it, they can mention in the rules whether or not it should be used. If this is not done for some reason, then whether or not it is used depends on whether the players now consider its use legitimate, or not, and this is already a purely individual matter and does not even depend on whether you lost because of this bug, or won. My personal opinion is that such an unpunished loss of control over a unit is really capable of working wonders. But whether or not it is used in an online game is not for me to judge. Therefore, the word is now with the AC, which, I am sure, will make an ARGUMENTED and FAIR decision on this situation.

Hell, maybe I'm getting involved where I shouldn't, but why threaten to withdraw from the tournament if the Arbitration Committee doesn't rule in your favor? Why play on a resource where you don't trust the administration?

I fully trust the decision of the Arbitration Committee, which is why I turned to them, but playing in a tournament where the rules are established on the fly and then cannot be disputed is not for me. As I already said, this is not a threat or an attempt to beg for something; it's a decision made not only by me. I just know that in case of losing a match, I won't even go into this topic and won't notify anyone anymore "I said it beforehand."

Just play a new game, and let this one remain in history as yet another example of unfinished work by the developers, but not by the brains of the players!

I understand your frustration; it's annoying when a winning game is lost like that, but it's best to postpone the decision about conceding until morning. At the same time, I'll share my opinion. It was a clear victory for Dirty/LeBron, and a beautiful one at that. I'd like to see more games like this. The win was due to well-coordinated teamwork and skill, which in this case manifested as knowledge of the nuances.

I fully trust the decision of the Arbitration Committee, which is why I turned to them, but playing in a tournament where the rules are established on the fly and then cannot be disputed is not for me, as I already said, this is not a threat or an attempt to beg for something, it is a decision made not by me alone, I just know that in case of losing a match, I won't even go into this topic and won't notify anyone anymore "I said in advance."

HellLighT, don't you think that if the Arbitration Committee now recognizes the actions of Dirty and LeBron as illegitimate, then they will establish some rules on the fly? (=
I understand your emotions, but they didn't violate any rules
I sympathize with you, but they still won beautifully.

Unfortunately, it has always been the case that the rules are adjusted after a precedent. Because only practice reveals the problems. It seems that with the Berserk spell, a critical mass of issues hasn't yet accumulated. Situations like this are indeed rare (and this one arose spontaneously and by chance). Here, in addition, the loop bug also triggered, which played a bigger role (and in the Physics engine, there's a bit of confusion with left and right, but that's not really important). The defeated players cannot have any complaints – everything is within the rules, in accordance with the letter of the law – it's just that this time, you were the victim of another bug/imperfection in the rules. Berserk is a beautiful spell. And it shouldn't be banned, but rather fixed. By the way, it's very good material for a Baratorch in HD+. I have a separate request to the organizers, which is now public. Since, after communicating with them in ICQ, I understood that they will not take any measures regarding this issue. The question concerns the participant Wlk777. Firstly, including a banned player in the tournament is already questionable. At the same time, the organizer should bear full responsibility for the recurrence of problems, especially from this player, and strictly monitor the situation. And what happened? During our last team game, my opponent displayed unrestrained rudeness with a stream of abusive insults directed at me. And this is despite the fact that I cannot realistically counter the rude behavior. For such behavior, at a minimum, administrative responsibility should be applied. This is if we are talking within the framework of the Law. Wlk777 should be unconditionally disqualified. Play, but don't overdo it, this isn't a kindergarten.

I understand your emotions, but they didn't actually break any rules.

Yeah. That's right. No matter how you look at it.
And the fact that Heroes turned out to be an unbalanced and buggy game, and this became an unpleasant discovery at such an inappropriate moment, is sad.

- Hellight
Regarding the bugs, do you remember our game when you bought out a killed Galthran with full movement points and finished off my Dessa, who was sitting without mana?

The rules don't prohibit that. So it's absolutely legal. And you were formally 100% right. Just like Dirty and Lebron are right here.

And there are still many bugs and imbalances in the game, despite the rules.