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Posts from Poll with comments: skill tree.

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Cheat or no cheat?
69 voters
Single choice Public votes
This poll is closed.
Cheat!
46.4% 32 votes
Well, I don't think so
30.4% 21 votes
I'm having trouble answering
23.2% 16 votes
In reply to Qwerty
13 years ago
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Qwerty
I believe that such a database is only possible for a single save file. That is, different maps can have different sets of 255 trees. Isn't that right?

If the database is only for a specific save file, then it wouldn't make sense for online games. Therefore, we are talking about a universal database here, although I don't understand if it is even possible. It would be nice if those who believe it is possible could provide at least one example for any hero. (Personally, I am still skeptical that it will work).
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13 years ago
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At the start of the game, a number from 1 to 255 is generated, which determines the hero's skill tree. The tree is called a tree because you can develop along different branches. However, the tree as a whole remains unchanged throughout the game. Sometimes, you can identify the tree. For example, if a rare skill for the hero appears at early levels, then there are likely only 1-2 such trees. Someone gave the example that Craig has exactly one tree with diplomacy on the 2nd level (SoD). That is, seeing diplomacy on the 2nd level, you can continue to develop wisely (if there are records for this tree). Similarly, in WoG, Brogh has a "lol-tree" where all the necessary skills are given in a row (3 speed, offense, water, tactics), but the scout advances on the 17th level, I think. I myself have encountered this, and I have seen it in reports; there is only one such tree. Here, you need to realize in time that you have entered this tree and break it by refusing something. Also, for Brogh, there is a terrible tree with tactics on the 2nd level, where if you take it, you won't get anything useful; there is artillery further on, wisdom, fire, etc.
In reply to Qwerty
13 years ago
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Qwerty
No. During the creation of the starting save file, the contents of chests, etc., are generated. At this same time, I believe, the generation of 255 skill trees for each hero also occurs.
You seem to be misinterpreting the concept of a "skill tree."
A hero in one save file has only one skill tree, which clearly defines the acquisition of all skills across all possible development branches. For an infinite number of save files, each hero has 255 different skill trees, one of which will be in each specific save file.

Regarding the database. It's an incredibly difficult task, even for a single hero, to account for all the variations when the skill tree is altered by skills acquired "from the outside" – it's simply impossible. But a program can do it...
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13 years ago
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As far as I know, all skill trees are tied to their numbers. The only thing is that different sequences of acquiring the same skills don't affect anything. For example, if I have Tazar, with armor expert and advanced tactics. He is given a choice: tactics expert or basic air. So, at the next level, if you advance tactics, you will still be offered air. Don't believe me? - check it in single-player mode, you can choose any skills. The whole point is that the combination of certain skills will always lead to the same skill tree. I don't believe that you haven't noticed how suspiciously similarly supreme lords level up, for example. In 90% of cases, they get earth and logistics, as well as offense and armor. Deviations are extremely rare. This is all about the fact that the skill trees are the same. For example, Craig and Nimue (with advanced offense at the start) will have the same set of trees, i.e., in total there will be 255 of them, but not for each one, but for both. If you take, for example, mysticism in the witch hut, then a corresponding tree is selected, where mysticism is the nth skill. It is precisely because of the number of secondary skills that there are so many skill trees. That's the deal. Cheating is when you get an unknown tree number from the save file. That's one thing. But it's another thing if you first put in the effort, extracted all 255 trees, neatly systematized them, and maybe even wrote a program that searches for possible tree numbers based on skills (and as levels progress, it will become clear which tree you have). Right now, I'm playing a game where I was given (to Tazar) luck first, then water. I knew that when choosing between mysticism and luck, it is better to prefer the latter, because, as far as I remember, trees with luck are good when they give water. Then logistics came, followed by scout. And what else do I need? Now I already know for sure, because I looked it up and found the tree number in my database (conditionally speaking, for now this is only for Tazar and rather unsystematic information), and now I know that I will be offered earth, then offense. That's it.

Added 13 minutes ago
You seem to be misinterpreting the very concept of a "skill tree". For one hero in one save, there is one tree that clearly defines the acquisition of all skills in all possible development branches. For an infinite number of saves, each hero has 255 different trees, one of which will be in each specific save. Regarding the database. It's a hell of a job even for one hero, and it's generally impossible to take into account all the options when the tree is distorted by skills acquired "from the outside". But a program can...

There is a program, but it currently draws all the data from the code. If you force it to remember everything, then it will become a database. In principle, this should not be super difficult, two hours of work and the database is ready. And if you work hard, you can enter the hero's name, current skills, and see what possible skill tree options currently exist. That's all, I guess
In reply to Sadness
13 years ago
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Vaflya
As far as I know, all skill trees are tied to their numbers. The only thing is that different sequences of acquiring the same skills don't affect anything.
For example, if I have Tazar, armor expert, advanced tactics. They offer a choice: tactics expert, basic air. So, at the next level, if you advance tactics, you will still be offered air. Don't believe me? - check it in single-player mode, you can take any skills. The whole point is that the combination of certain skills will always lead to the same skill tree. I don't believe that you haven't noticed how suspiciously similarly high-level lords are developed, for example. In 90% of cases, they get earth and logistics, as well as offense and armor. Deviations are extremely rare. This is all about the fact that the skill trees are the same. For example, Craig and Nimue (starting with advanced offense) will have the same set of trees, i.e., in total there will be 255, but not for each one, but for both. If you take, for example, mysticism in the witch hut, then a corresponding tree is selected, where mysticism is the nth skill. It is precisely because of the number of secondary skills that there are so many skill trees. That's the deal.

Cheating is when you get an unknown tree number from the save file. That's one thing. But it's another thing if you first put in the effort, extracted all 255 trees, conveniently systematized them, and maybe even wrote a program that searches for possible tree numbers based on skills (and with the passage of levels, it will become clear which tree you have).

Right now, I'm playing a game where I was given (to Tazar) luck first, then water. I knew that when choosing between mysticism and luck, it is better to prefer the latter, because in my experience, trees with luck are good when they give water. Then logistics came, followed by scout. And what else do I need? Now I already know for sure, because I looked it up and found the tree number in my database (conditionally speaking, this is only for Tazar and rather unsystematic information), and now I know that I will be offered earth, then offense. That's how it is.

The highlighted part is definitely not true. Regarding Craig and Nimue, it's doubtful, because the heroes are of different classes, and therefore have different probabilities of skills appearing, for example, Craig cannot get water at all, while Nimue can.

A limited database is possible, the question is only in the degree of limitation and the reliability of the conclusions that you draw based on such a database.

P.S. Regarding the possibility of extracting the entire database using a program - maybe it's worth doing, because the genie is already out of the bottle, and it has been for a long time.
In reply to Medium_HP
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13 years ago
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Please provide a link to the program; I'm interested.

I voted for "Not a cheat," and how can it even be considered a cheat if its use isn't mentioned in the rules of any portal? Everywhere it says that it's forbidden to view the saves of an unfinished game, but nothing is said about the program.
In reply to Medium_HP
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13 years ago
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Medium, I provided examples of skills. I can give an example from a recent game by JustObserver, who was streaming. After his shooting and leadership, he was offered air elementals. They offered him this even before he improved his shooting (due to his own mistake, a misclick to be precise). He was somewhere here, he can confirm. I can only be wrong if there is another, or maybe more, trees where they offer something other than air elementals for the Tazaru with that tactic. And, for example, in the case of Craig and diplomacy, it will be exactly as I said, and as you highlighted. Regarding Nimuss, I'm not sure, because some skills might be prohibited, and I don't remember that. But the fact that some trees will be 100% identical, I guarantee. The order on one line doesn't matter, i.e., 1 and 2 or 2 and 1 is the same. A tree with armor and tactics or with tactics and armor, that's what I'm talking about.
In reply to Sadness
13 years ago
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Well, it seems we're talking about different things again. If, by level 20, we have two heroes with the same set of skills, it doesn't necessarily mean that they have the same skill trees in that particular save. In my understanding, identical skill trees mean a complete match of all possible skill upgrade options.
They say that Das and Shakti have the same set of skill trees; I haven't checked myself, but it could very well be true.
In reply to favio
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13 years ago
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favio
Please provide a link to the program; I'm interested.

I voted for "Not a cheat," and how can it even be considered a cheat if its use isn't mentioned in the rules of any portal? Everywhere it says it's forbidden to view saves from an unfinished game, but nothing is said about the program.
"It's forbidden to view saves" - and what does this program do?
That's right, it views them. Therefore, it's a cheat.

TS, stop with the nonsense. You shouldn't post things like this for public discussion; you should communicate with the top players.
For example, ASM did this; I created a clan for this purpose, which had a dozen top players and programmers similar to AlexSP. They wrote many programs; your topic is still relatively harmless, as Numvan mentioned, but there are even more dangerous ones that could kill the online aspect of Heroes, and I, for example, don't want to stop playing this game, as I did with the second and fourth installments.
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13 years ago
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Don't confuse offline and online, IMO. Many people will appear who think this is "normal" in an online game. Rebellius, come to our aid!
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13 years ago
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Cap lol, what a joke.
The person simply doesn't read what is written.

Added 1 minute ago
Many people will emerge, considering this "normal"! in an online game.
And what is the purpose of the poll? I am interested in the opinions of others. I have already said that now I compare not with the program itself, but with the results of the research. I researched Tazar and now I can play as him and I get what I want. I know in advance what I need to take and what I don't need, and the probability that the tree is different is minimal.
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13 years ago
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What are you so afraid of, Captain? It seems like you've been using something similar for about twenty years now.
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13 years ago
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Some trollish topic))
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13 years ago
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Wicc described everything accurately. This issue has been thoroughly investigated. If someone were to actually compile all the information and create a database of skill trees to accurately determine the best upgrades, that person would deserve a lot of respect. However, it's worth noting that this is a Sisyphean task because the practical benefit in an actual game is minimal (no more than using a damage calculator). It's better to spend the time that would be needed to analyze all the skill trees on improving your gameplay skills. You'll get more benefit from that.

There was a debate here about Craig and Nimue. They have different skill trees. But Claudius and Tamika, or Shakti and Dasa, have the same 255 skill trees.

P.S.: Using the program is, of course, a cheat, albeit not a very serious one. But the program DOES NOT WORK online. The author has fixed this.
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13 years ago
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I imagine that if I knew exactly which skills to upgrade, when each unit would gain morale, and had the map memorized, it would become boring! Therefore, my answer is – it’s not necessary to delve into this, as it would be detrimental to the game.

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