Posts from CIS-13 in Minsk – it’s winter!!! Auto-translated

Why get yourself into a mess and then start rambling about things you don't understand?

You do this constantly, everyone is used to it :) After you talked about the weakness of the Barbarians (especially in comparison to the Tower), your competence was called into question.

I suggest justifying the imbalance of the Castles with an example.

Swamp and Necromancer are significantly ahead, there's a roughly equal middle group, and Tower is weak. The only thing that somehow balances the strength of the Castles is trade. But this isn't balance, it's nonsense. You could also add trade to SOD and it would be balanced :D

It's obvious that on XL maps, War of the Chosen is stronger, better, and more skillfully designed. Everything else is just empty talk.

Heroes isn't just XL. And saying it's skillfully designed is an exaggeration. It would be more accurate to say: it's better than in SOD, but still far from ideal.

Added 12 minutes ago

I won't write like the previous guru, speaking on behalf of everyone, but IMO - what repels me from SOD:

I'm only writing my IMO. I don't care what anyone plays, considering I don't play.

The inability to rebuild the Guildhall on large maps.

Yes.

There's no chess timer.

Yes, but it's a matter of time.

There's no quick combat.

It already exists.

Earth magic dominates. If you have it, you're in a good position; if not, you might have big problems.

In War of the Chosen, magic isn't really needed. Except for the final battle. And even then, Water will do, taken with 2 Damage Dealers. Water is the strongest magic for the final battle, and with Damage Dealers, it's a must-have.

Necromancy (IMO - it's just a boring grind of neutrals - it's anti-heroes).

It's a matter of taste. Many people enjoy not having to deal with skeletons. In War of the Chosen, it's Demonology.

Cheat artifact - red orb (which ruins the intrigue in 70% of final battles). Cheat artifacts - cloak and medal.

Medal - yes! Orb and cloak, probably yes, but it's debatable.

Cheat artifact - boots that give 600 mana points.

It's not that important.

Logistics units walking across half the map with a full set of artifacts at level 20+.

Brogkhild with Explorer says hello. A level 20 Logistics unit gives +600 mana, just like Explorer. Only Logistics has Logistics as a bonus, while in War of the Chosen, it's 4000 mana and a specialty bonus. They add the necessary skills and are on horseback (like Earth in SOD).

I won't deliberately write about the advantages of War of the Chosen that were created specifically for this version (such as mirror templates).

Mirror templates are cool. But for some reason, people don't like them, and they like Jebus :)

Well then, I'll be detailed as well:

You constantly do this, everyone's used to it by now. After you talked about the weakness of Barbarians (especially on Jebus Cross compared to Tower), your competence has been called into question.

When I bet against Barbarians, it's not my competence I put on the line, but money. By the way, I recently played a match Inferno vs Barbarian, and won two games. Incidentally, that's why I can't understand why you discuss balance in HotA without having enough playtime. Otherwise, I'd just queue up against you. Let's say I'd take a weak Tower for myself.

As for heroes not being only XL - I'm perfectly aware of that, which is why I don't venture onto the SoD field with its anarchy, SMAC. BUT, I'll give another personal argument (particularly after watching Maretti's games): serious finals should be played on XL+U, meaning HotA is indispensable.

Yes, it's not perfect, but for instance, the magic balance is quite well thought out, and much else has been playtested.

In HotA, magic isn't needed at all. Maybe only for the final fight. And even then, water magic taken with 2 Dimension Doors will do. Water is the strongest magic for the final fight, and with DD - it's a must-have.

I've never heard such nonsense from active players. And naturally, water is not a must-have; people often skip it even on small level-ups.

Broghild with Explorer sends his regards. Level 20 Logistics gives +600MP, same as Explorer. Only Logistics has only the logistics bonus as a benefit, unlike in HotA where it also gives 4000MP and a specialty bonus. Stacked the required skills and on a horse (like Earth magic in SoD)
Quote:

Still, the difference is significant. Any hero can pick up Explorer. And crucially, they need to fill three slots for it. Again, making allowances for the fact that you haven't played in a long time, I won't write that often after picking up Explorer, for instance, it makes sense to skip Logistics.

In short, your argumentation is weak and superficial. From which it follows that there's not much point in discussing HotA balance with you. Therefore, I suggest writing constructively. If you think the SoD mod is good, write about its advantages. I'll try not to bash SoD without good reason.

P.S. Ah, about Mirror. I agree that fun players don't play it very often, but in tournaments (Giants, SoDA Net, CIS Championship) it appears regularly and consistently.

1. More players. Everyone starts playing SOD. Tournaments on SOD gather more players.
2. Even more imbalance between factions, although it should be the opposite.
3. Experience in VT is useless to anyone. It repels new players.

1. Online tournaments gather more players.
But we practically didn't engage in promoting VT (because there are no funds for this). That is, the integration into the masses happened naturally. And, as a rule, a representative of our audience consciously and skillfully chooses VT. VT is currently not a money-making thing, and it was not created for commercial purposes. And therefore, some moments (for example, the design of the chat window, the design of the site) have not been done, since the product is aimed, again, at an experienced player.
2. In VT, the strongest factions are indeed swamp and undead, and the Tower is lagging behind (and swamp without Brokhild and undead without Galtran are somewhat "less competitive"). So what? Are the factions better balanced in SOD? Have you started drinking...?
3. Experience is precisely the balancing factor that, in aggregate, can negate the possible advantage of any faction.

By the way, is the Spirit of Despair banned in SOD tournaments? If not, then to the lottery of neutral morale triggering, an artifact is added that gives a huge advantage (especially from the early stages).
I myself "grew up" on SOD, but I remember these endless restarts, these lotteries during almost EVERY battle. This imbalance of magic. This lottery with the number of stacks and the construction of the second level. These restarts based on the hero's level. And heroes that cannot be leveled up... The list can go on forever...:smile13:
VT offers a greater number of development paths that can ensure victory. Many bugs have been fixed in VT.
Regarding the larger audience: well, large does not necessarily mean "better". And again, don't forget - how many years has SOD been around and how many years has VT been around...
Not to mention the fact that the solutions that appear are directly borrowed from VT...

Added 11 minutes ago
The second and third points of your "VT disadvantages" are not objective. And I asked for objective ones.

Added 2 minutes ago
Don't forget, VT is a tournament version.

The second and third points of your "cons of VT" are not objective. And I asked specifically for objective ones.

[Added 2 minutes later]
Don't forget, VT is a tournament version.

Well, regarding the third point, 90-95% of SoD players don't care about VT.

Great humor, dude! :smile20: :smile20: Mikhail appreciated it, I think. I believe the title of author of the most outrageous post suits you.

Oelm, flower, don't be shy, show your face. Show your photo :)
Or will you finally crawl out of the virtual world into real life, and we'll all see you say something "outrageous"?
Minsk, Odessa, or Moscow? Will we be able to behold the sun-faced Indru?

Aren't you tired of trolling?
And arguing with Darth about who knows the physics of Heroes better... it just doesn't fit in my head... where is the world going?

Every bird praises its own nest...

I don't think a SoD player will listen to a VT player and vice versa; everyone will stick to their opinion, regardless of the premises that seem objective to both sides.

There is no need to argue over preferences.

Well, on the third point, 90-95% of SoD players. Who the hell needs WT

Hello. Could you provide a link to the research results. Secondly, I didn't understand — who the hell needs WT or creature experience?
Thirdly, I'll remind both you and dear comrade Dirty that the results of a survey (which you never conducted) are not objective data, since they represent subjective assessments.
As for objective data — the number of registered users on the HeroesWorld forum is 24288. The HeroesWorld forum was launched, if I'm not mistaken, in 2005. And at that time, products under the conditional name "The Heroes of Might and Magic Game Series" were already popular and in demand in their own right. Considering the fact that a significant number of users obviously do not visit the section dedicated to the SoD version, it becomes clear that the control sum of 24288 should be reduced by the number of those users who do not visit forums dedicated to SoD.
The number of registered users on the WT forum is 3795 people. The WT forum was launched in 2009 (in test mode). Effectively, it began operation in 2010 alongside the official release of the first working version of WT. The forum is dedicated to the WT product.
And the WT product was new and unknown at the time of its launch. Therefore, the effectiveness of WT, even based on these elementary data, is relatively higher than that of HeroesWorld as a whole, and certainly higher than HeroesWorld — SoD in particular, considering that the actual development of WT itself and the WT forum was handled by "2-3 people".

Added after 18 minutes
And I'm not even mentioning the fact that the WT chat (even with the current lack of moderation) fulfills its function of finding opponents (which on HeroesWorld has a separate thread "Arrange to play 3 online!"). The number of views for that thread is about 210,000 (and, as I understand it, this is the most popular thread related to SoD).
At the same time, on the WT forum, the most popular thread is "[PLAYER RATING] Reports and confirmations of rated games", with over 250,000 views.

Could you provide a link to the research results?

What research are you talking about? Is this some kind of laboratory where they research something? Or a research institute?

I'm talking about the opinions of Heroes players (SoD players) that I've talked to.
+ personal observations

Secondly, I don't understand why you're not interested in the Town or creature experience.

Creature experience

Thirdly, I'll remind you, and my dear comrade Dirty, that the results of the survey (which you didn't even conduct) are not objective data, as they represent subjective assessments.

I don't need you to remind me, explain, or lecture me. I'm telling you why this is happening, why many people who play SoD don't like it. That's all the objectivity there is.

***

I don't even want to talk about the rest. It works for you. Okay. Gl.

(Calculating proportions and specific weight based on registered users :D This is nonsense.:D)

The vast majority of SoD players hate experience

This is a fact, whether you like it or not, or anyone else, but it is true. That's all I want to say.

***

Right now, there are two directions in the game: SoD and Town. Some people prefer SoD, others prefer Town. There is no best version for everyone, and there won't be.

And Nagann was right to create separate SoD Tournaments.

Every crow praises its own swamp...

I don't think that SoD players will listen to Town players, and vice versa, everyone will stick to their opinion, despite what both sides consider to be objective reasons.

I completely agree.

There's no need to argue over preferences.

No one is arguing. This topic is so overdone... But it's obvious that there are still people who still don't understand that Town and SoD are separate, parallel paths...

The topic is no longer relevant. There will, of course, be no winter CIS tournament.

Discussion of the CIS-2013 tournament: http://www.heroeswt.net/forum//topic/261/

Two applications have been submitted: Minsk http://www.heroeswt.net/forum//topic/217/ and Odessa http://www.heroeswt.net/forum//topic/260/.

Odessa LLC:smile54: And why isn't there a topic opened on our forum??? I finally want to participate in a real tournament:rolleyes:

Based on objective data, it has over 250,000 views.

The vast majority of Sodovites can't stand experienced players

Excellent point.
I can only sympathize with the "vast majority" of Sodovites.:smile20:
And to add to that, the VT project exists primarily for EXPERIENCED players.

And to add to that, the Warlord Tactics project exists primarily for EXPERIENCED players.

"EXPERIENCED players" - who can't play with the morality of the creatures? Sure...

"EXPERIENCED players" - who can't play with morale affecting monsters? Sure...

What does "can't" mean? Everyone played with morale at some point. Any player familiar with the Warlord Tournament (WT) can handle playing Shades of Darkness (SoD).
And we held offline tournaments for SoD. And games were restarted for 6-9 hours. WT is a tournament version that takes into account the difficulties of offline games. And games were lost due to the repeated triggering of monster morale during a single battle. And games were won by finding the Spirit of Despair on map 1-1-1.
Similarly, you can ask SoD players: "SoD players can't play with creature experience"...
By the way, you can simply uncheck a box, and morale will appear for neutral creatures... And creature experience will be disabled...

By the way, you can simply uncheck a box, and the neutral creatures will have morale...

That's exactly what no Warlord Tournament (WT) player wants to do, and it's a pity.
WT corrupts with its polished and simplified approach. First, you disable morale, then classes appear, then a bank, then experience, and that's it, lights out – the person becomes too "EXPERIENCED" to play on the Standard Order of Development (SOD).
The question isn't about what's better/more correct/more competitive, but about what's more interesting to play. And SOD beats WT in this regard, however strange that may sound. In the pursuit of "competitiveness," the sharpness is lost.
I can say this as a player who has played both versions extensively. At one time, I advocated for a unified version of the game – WT adapted to SOD as much as possible, but unfortunately, neither the SOD players nor, even more strangely, the WT players accepted this.

Every man praises his own swamp...

I don't think that a SoD player will listen to a WoT player, and vice versa; everyone will stick to their opinion, despite what seems to both sides to be objective reasons.

There's no need to argue over preferences.

You couldn't have said it better. When I brought up the topic of the SoD championship, I was thinking that WoT and SoD are equally important for the Heroes world.

If this jab is directed at me regarding my statement that the "club championship of the CIS 'new era' was conceived...", then the idea to hold the Championship in the "new era" belongs to you.
And in general, remember how tired you were last year: you even swore off organizing such events (or did people appear who would really help and take on certain functions?).
In theory, it would be possible to hold tournaments in the CIS for two disciplines (WoT and classic SoD) - but in practice, this will complicate the organization due to the larger number of participants, the larger number of organizational issues.

2 Merlin. I came to respect you for your reports, even though we weren't acquainted in real life. Then you supported me as much as possible in the arguments when the holding of the club tournament was being defended. We met in Michurinsk, you turned out to be a great guy, we drank, sat, and talked. Then I learned how you organized the tournament in Yekaterinburg a year later; what kind of jabs could I have against you? Don't even think about it.

The target audience for WoT and SoD championships is fundamentally different. Let me name a few players - Mizrael, Scorp, Decontaminator, Vitalik, Megapes, Cannabis, Leha, Flash, Pavel... how many of them will go to a WoT tournament? There are many other players who love SoD more than WoT, and there's no point in arguing about which is better; we're not going to try to lure WoT players over. Agree, I was one of the initiators of the club tournament in WoT three years ago; I invested so much effort and resources, I argued so much when I defended it - it's not in my best interest to harm the WoT championship.

Now, why I'm back. I haven't broken off my connections with the Heroes community; I was constantly meeting with Heroes players over a beer, and they were all asking why I left. They asked questions about SoD tournaments. So I wrote this.

First of all, where will I look for like-minded people? Michurinsk-Tambov, Moscow, the former Chaos League, World, Portal - in the traditional centers of SoD.

Hence, the event can be held either in Moscow or in Michurinsk. I organize tournaments in my city; you've all seen it.

Although it would be more convenient to hold the championship in Moscow. From our city, Cannabis could come - his brother Vundi lives and works in Moscow, Alexgrid - his brother Dmitgrid also lives and works in Moscow, Leha and Flash - they worked in Moscow, they know the city, they can visit former Michurinsk residents Veland, Khvost, Dimen, Alex. Plus me, Scorp, and Mizrael.
From our group, about 5-8 people could come to the tournament. Moscow itself is the largest center for Heroes players - these are the old Chaos players, plus Vitalik, possibly Pit, possibly Stinger; a decent number of people could gather.
From the two groups, about 10-15 people could be gathered. They will definitely be joined by SoD players from other cities, and that's how a festival will be created.

In terms of timing, the WoT and SoD championships should be held at different times. Definitely not in May. I wouldn't want it in the summer; everyone is on vacation. Perhaps during the New Year holidays (although it's cold) - or as an option, in the spring, at the end of March. It's better not to have it in April; they turn off the heating, and it's not a pleasant experience to freeze in a cold apartment.

Location. There are places to relax in Moscow, unlike Michurinsk. If it's difficult to gather people in Michurinsk, they will gladly go to Moscow.

or did people appear who would really help and take on certain functions?).

I've always relied on myself and haven't passed the buck to others. I will accept help from Muscovites, for example, by meeting with Pit, Querti. I will need:
1. A relatively inexpensive hotel, dormitory, or large apartment where guests can be accommodated.
2. A club. I've visited several computer clubs in Moscow that are struggling enough that a large order - 3-4 days for 20-25 computers - would seem like a great idea to them. I can also arrange it myself, although I will accept help; I liked the club where Muscovites played last time. I work as a lawyer and visit Moscow quite often.
3. To suggest adequate SoD players on the forum so that I can invite them to the championship.

There are no financial difficulties; I will help some of my friends participate, and I will organize the prize fund with sponsors; if necessary, I can put in 15,000 myself. My principle is not to charge players entry fees. Many in Michurinsk didn't play because they were short on money and couldn't afford the fee.

I was offered not a Swiss system, but a double-elimination bracket, where players are eliminated after two losses. That's what we'll do, because after two losses, a player really stops playing.

I apologize for the off-topic in this thread; I will conduct negotiations and post all the information I receive in a specially created topic on the SoD championship.