HeroesWorld

Posts from Турниры HeroesWorld Cup & World Cup - 2012

Tournament History online Closed Topic
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Offline aka.Ward3n
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Javdet
in light of the current events, it does. sorry if I offended anyone

I'm a newbie, I've been playing Heroes for 6 months, I have no connection to any of the tournament participants, and I like Maretti the most in the game.
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Offline Javdet
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aka.Ward3n


I'm a newbie; I've been playing Heroes for 6 months,

and that's exactly why. People with a lot of experience and a long history of playing can't find common ground here. Every provocative post (and your post seemed like one to me) is very likely to cause a strong reaction. People are still recovering from what happened; give him a chance;)

As for the fact that the Chinese player is playing openly (arguments exist), the overwhelming majority of forum users, who are far from unintelligent, agree with this... but this is just something to think about.
Даже если вас съели - у вас два выхода:smile19:

Зима 2011-12.
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Offline aka.Ward3n
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I'm not arguing; due to my inexperience and lack of knowledge about how to distinguish moss from non-moss, I'm just sharing my initial impressions. In principle, I agree that since the post might cause controversy, I'll delete it:smile22:.
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Offline Javdet
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StickyFingaz
Regardless of the tournament outcome, I'll still deal with the Chinese player just for the fun of it.
Will the punishment be public?
Даже если вас съели - у вас два выхода:smile19:

Зима 2011-12.
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Offline Captain
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Javdet
Sanya, honestly, tell me:
did you write this because you genuinely think so, or because you initially defended him, claiming he's the best?
I'm being honest and saying that in this particular game, I didn't notice anything special.
The Homunculus was already unlucky with its 4 starting units.
Regarding the Chinese player, let's analyze his moves.
From the start, there are 2 paths; the Peasant immediately goes to the stables, no question about it. On turn 112, the heroes are aiming for the block at the top, so for now, the only path is downwards. He goes there; there's a Manticore ambush on the path, and another one to the right.
On the bottom left, there's a University where you can get a Log and right next to it, there's a Drake ambush and a gold mine on the path, so it's clear that he needs to go there.
Then, on one turn, the Peasant reveals another Drake ambush... it all seems logical.
Then, on turns 117-121, he visits the stables, doesn't buy a book, and doesn't take Pandora with the 20 gold Medusas, even though he could have easily done so.
And then... what are your suspicions?
- That he didn't equip the breastplate? - That's not a big deal; the paths are slow, and on turn 124, expecting that the opponent will break through his starting units, pass through the treasure, and appear on his base is unrealistic.
Then he stands on the central treasure, leveling up with three Drakes... suspicious.
This Chinese player is also under suspicion, but in this game, the odds are not in our team's favor.
Дипломатия - искусство говорить собаке "хорошая собачка" до тех пор пока не найдешь подходящую палку.
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Offline Lider1
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Wicc


In Mafia, the method of "hanging for poor play" is common, and even innocent players often fall victim to it. However, if this is tolerated, then every Mafia player will exploit this loophole.

The same applies here: if a player doesn't care about their reputation, and in response to suspicion, they curse at opponents and withdraw from tournaments, then why keep such a player in the tournaments?

There is also forum-based Mafia (and here on HW, by the way, too), where people communicate online in chat mode. And yes, they identify players, including based on the written text; the person's mood is conveyed quite well through it.

Intuition is a powerful thing; it allows you to see a lot from subtle details. For example, I have a personal list of players whom I have long decided are suspicious, but due to a lack of argumentation, I haven't started any conflicts. However, every time someone is caught cheating, it turns out that they have been on my list for a long time. Rebel is on it. Black Knight and Tinker too.

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Wicc

I've been playing a lot of Mafia lately; it has become a replacement for Heroes for me, and it's a great place to train the skill of identifying suspicious people based purely on psychology. So, players who defend themselves the way Rebel is doing now are usually almost unanimously "hanged." Because this behavior is typical of a caught Mafia player.

You can see an example of a good response from an "innocent player," for example, in the dispute between Marcon and... I don't remember who. This happened about two years ago; Pete might have something in his archives. Marcon's first post convincingly demonstrated that there was nothing to be found in the accusations. Personally, I didn't even bother looking at the saves; Marcon looked so "innocent."

Rebel's posts, on the other hand, are very unconvincing; the style is the same as that of previously caught cheaters. Plus, in terms of content, he's struggling to defend himself logically and emotionally; he's just weakly deflecting with a "you're the idiot" attitude. Yeah, it's a familiar pattern... the same thing happened in some previous cases. Honest people usually defend their honor and dignity differently.

Of course, this kind of argument can't be used as evidence, but it's very useful for forming a personal opinion.

Wicc, what (censored-the hell) are you writing!

Mafia?

Mafia????


Lol WHAT???

Making conclusions without even looking at the saves?! I didn't expect that from you.

If you (censored-don't care) about Heroes and what's happening in it now, just say so. Don't try to influence anyone with your authority, just because.

It's like a veterinarian approaching a cow, simply placing a hand on its back, and saying what's wrong with it. Wicc is a veterinarian-clairvoyant!
Сейчас балуюсь этим https://vcmi.eu/download/
За то что нейтралы не бегают за единичкой, для меня это уже стоит того
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Offline Javdet
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I haven't looked at the saves, so I can't say anything. But judging by the statements of Gomunculus and Seven, a perfect implementation also exists in this game. My view of the situation is as follows: Comrade Sunhu (censored) initially, even during the early stages, has 60-70 percent more favorable situations than his opponent due to exploring the map. And if things don't work out with the generator or the opponent, then the "papal intuition" comes into play. This is evidenced by two demonstration games when difficulties arose. In short, I don't think it's worth judging based on the last game.
Даже если вас съели - у вас два выхода:smile19:

Зима 2011-12.
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Offline Captain
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Javdet
I haven't looked at the saves, so I can't say anything. But judging by the statements of Gomunculus and Seven, a perfect implementation also exists in this game.

The way I see it: Comrade Sunhu (censored) initially, even during the Restoration, gains 60-70 percent more favorable positions than his opponent by exploring the map. And if things don't work out with the generator or the opponent, then the "papal intuition" comes into play. This is evidenced by two demonstration games when difficulties arose...
In short, I don't think we should judge based on the last game.
Roma, the Chinese player didn't take the Restoration map; only Gomunculus implemented all his strategies...
Yes, we shouldn't judge based on the last game.
Дипломатия - искусство говорить собаке "хорошая собачка" до тех пор пока не найдешь подходящую палку.
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Offline Oelm
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Continuing the topic. It seems to me that the controversial situation reached a dead end precisely because of the intervention of the "guru in retirement." Sticky talked to our hero's psychic, and that was that. "The giraffe is big; he knows best." Although, at first, nothing foreshadowed trouble. Sticky sowed the wind, and we see what he reaped. But the cunning "guru" is pulling another trick, and everyone around is to blame except him. He claims that Sticky succumbed to the bad influence of mythical vampires. Lo-lo-lo. Chronology: 1. First statement: the defenders of Rebell are fools. They don't speak with facts but express their opinion about Rebellius as a person. 2. Second statement: Rebellius defends himself so poorly that he is obviously guilty. 3. Third statement: to convince everyone of unfair play, analyzing the save files is not necessary. 4. Fourth statement: Stickyfingaz should not change his decision, even if it is wrong, because this is a sign of weakness. 5. Fifth statement: we pretend to be searching for justice, washing our hands. We demonstrate a sincere desire to find the truth. 6. Sixth statement: we gently hint that no one is capable of understanding the problems of the judging organization except the "guru." You can continue yourselves if you wish. And now, seriously: Note how Vik's posts differ from all other players' posts: The others put sincerity into their lines; when you read them, you can feel that the person cares about the discussion. And only one writes as if he is proving a mathematical theorem, coldly, dryly, and impassively. The logical content is excellent. But there is no ethical side at all; at first, it seemed like a kind of game. Like who can break whom. And then it suddenly became clear. In fact, he doesn't see anyone here as a person. And is this okay with everyone?
Земля нуля.
Все в ней нулево и кукольно.
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Offline Dirty_Player
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Oelm

4. The fourth point: Stickyfizz should not change the decision, even if it is incorrect, because this indicates weakness.
Yeah. Like, changing the decision is a sign of weakness, but closing the tournament is a sign of strength. :D
A normal person would see it through to the end, rather than abandoning it halfway, like RiMpel2, for example. It's easiest to give up and walk away, but to bring it to completion (even if just to the end, never mind) – that's truly a sign of strength.
This isn't the first time Stickyfizz has thrown in the towel. So, if you're that kind of person, don't try to take on more than you can handle.
Advice for future organizers: if you feel that you can't handle a difficult situation on your own, involve more experienced judges.

P.S.: If the organizer realizes that an incorrect decision was made, it is normal to cancel it and reconsider! Even in court, verdicts can be appealed and reviewed.
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In reply to Pit for LM
Offline Garret
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My head is already spinning from all these disputes—I decided to reread the history from the beginning. An interesting question arose because of the following:

Pit: Then we played. I've already written that I have no complaints about my own games; the results of two games were predetermined by the generator, and on the Jebus Cross, I lost myself—during the first week and a half of the game, I was simultaneously dealing with another urgent matter and couldn't concentrate on the game, resulting in several mistakes. Therefore, it would be foolish of me to blame Rebelius for Pandoras that had no influence on the result...
After the disputes over cheating, I no longer wanted to play in the tournament. Especially moving into the upper bracket instead of Rebelius when I lost fairly.
Rebelius: And the saves—of my games with Blackknight and Pit
Since it turns out that Pit has no complaints about the games, why are suspicious saves from those same games being posted??? Who decided to examine saves for which there are no complaints and weave them into the discussion? At this rate, we'll end up saying that making a move in the right direction on 111 is already suspicious!!!
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Offline Keba
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So, based on everything that's been read and discussed, here's what happened. Just like in life, Rebb was wrongly accused and essentially "imprisoned" – in this case, removed from the tournament. Moreover, he was blamed for everything that was later clearly explained in writing. All this happened solely based on suspicion of cheating to gain an unfair advantage. In other words, a hasty decision was made without waiting for clear explanations from Rebb, because someone's ego was hurt, and by the time they realized their mistake, it was too late. He was removed from the tournament, and they started playing friendly matches among themselves. This is not good, guys. Understand this: no matter how many stupid things someone does in life, there will always be someone with a conscience and a sense of justice. And the "boomerang" that exists in real life always returns to the one who did something very bad to another person. That's the law of life, and that's what I see happened here. And if this reaches someone, they will publicly admit it and apologize for their wrong actions. There's more than one person here who needs to do that. You need to admit your guilt and learn from your mistakes. Furthermore, the tournament needs to be completed to its logical conclusion. Rebb needs to be reinstated, and before that, he needs to apologize again, publicly, so that the stigma doesn't stick with him. He's an important player in the Heroes community. He should play against Neo because Pete lost to him. After that, whatever you've played or haven't played, continue playing, and don't whine that everyone refused because the mood was gone. Where's the spirit, where's the fight? Those who understand will know what I'm talking about. We need to determine who the world champion of 2012 is, even though many mistakes have been made. In football, referees often make mistakes by not awarding goals when a clear goal was scored, so come on, remaining fighters, and good luck to everyone in the future!
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Offline Sevensan
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blah blah blah. Is that enough? Captain, you're not very good. What grounds did he have to play this hand??? There's nothing on the first day, just a block on the road. I would have taken a rest without any hesitation! But no, we reveal the map and see a bunch of goodies ahead + 4 gold for the opponent... Trollface... we play! That's exactly how I imagined it. Well, the rest is as written above. Should we ban him? And who is in charge of banning? Maybe we should attach a poll and let everyone express their opinion.
ICQ 335-665-133
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Offline Pit for LM
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Garret
So, since Pit has no complaints about the games, but suspicious saves from these same games are being posted??? Who decided to look at saves that have no complaints and weave them into the discussion.
This is the standard procedure for handling cheating cases.
The judges receive complaints about a certain player and start reviewing all of their saves in a row. I always do the same. For example, with RBV. As a result of the search, saves with cheating in the tournament on the Portal were found. Look in the AK thread. At that time, Psikh also had no complaints. Many people don't analyze their opponent's play. But just because there are no complaints, the cheating usually doesn't disappear.
Here in the tournament, there were complaints about the first round. The judges considered them insufficient. Sticky asked me about one of the saves. I replied that I had no reasonable explanation and that we should ask Rebelli what he was guided by. Further, ideally, the saves with the Pole should have been analyzed. What difficulties there were in obtaining these saves, I don't know. Look, I asked, and Rebelli immediately posted them. As I understand now, no one looked at them. Then I played. The saves of my games are on HeroesWorld. At that time, there were 13 or 16 views. I didn't judge my own games, but there are other judges besides me. Naturally, they were interested in the player whose games were in question.
Sticky asked me. I think self-quoting does not violate the confidentiality of personal correspondence.
StickyFingaz 28/05/2012 17:58
haven't you looked at the saves?
Pit 28/05/2012 18:00
I looked
Pit 28/05/2012 18:00
but it's hard to find anything there
Pit 28/05/2012 18:00
two games are very short
Pit 28/05/2012 18:01
and on Jebus Cross, I don't know, there's really nowhere to go
...
Pit 28/05/2012 18:02
I don't really have the mood to analyze when it's a loss

I know who found those Pandoras in my games. Sticky asked me about them back then.
Pit 28/05/2012 23:04
maybe he can determine the inside contents by the guard?
Pit 28/05/2012 23:04
I can't
Pit 28/05/2012 23:05
I pick empty ones(
...
Pit 28/05/2012 23:07
well, I can definitely determine a Pandora for gold (for 5k), that's not a problem
Pit 28/05/2012 23:07
for 2 magic value 7500
Pit 28/05/2012 23:07
for 5k experience 6500
Pit 28/05/2012 23:07
in principle, who knows
Pit 28/05/2012 23:07
also for level 1 creatures, also 7500

Where I feel guilty is that I removed myself from this matter. I should have helped Sticky, not with judging, but simply shared my experience so that the decision-making would be more justified and, so to speak, more legitimate. Everything happened too quickly. And I like to think for a very long time to avoid making mistakes.

Neo, I wrote to you a week ago about moving me to the upper bracket:
Pit (09:26:11 3/06/2012)
it's still probably not right
we should have left it as is, just disqualify Reba in both parts of the bracket
I wrote roughly the same thing to Sticky.
Sticky decided it wouldn't be right to leave you without an opponent and immediately advance you to Maretti, especially considering your role in banning Rebelli. You would have looked funny.

Well, I'm glad you decided to
1. Put the mudslinging aside.

I assume that regarding point
4. Restore the tournament standings to the moment of Reba's disqualification, and then let each participant decide for themselves what to do next without pressuring the Org.
if we are to reinstate Rebelli, then our match should be counted as a semifinal, i.e., my two victories should be credited to Rebelli. After all, I played in his place. Advance him directly to Maretti, and send you to the lower bracket. Surely you wouldn't want ill-wishers to think that you're looking for a second chance and need a victory at any cost?))))) So to speak, you want to get good rest from a block of pits...

About the tournament. What cares and tasks await the org?
A review of the Rebelli case. Specifically a review — with a full analysis of the saves of all games, discussion, and reasonable judging — because he was banned without serious grounds, but for Rebelli himself it's important to receive not an amnesty, but a complete acquittal.
Consideration of the Chinese question. Again, not "ban him!", but first think it over. And hear all opinions, and learn his explanations.

It would be very nice if someone took this burden upon themselves.
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Offline Neoandy
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Pit for LM

Stiky decided that it wouldn't be right to leave you without a match and immediately put you against Maretti, especially considering your role in banning Rebellius. You would look funny.

But now you look funny, having lost to him and still advancing :)
Think about it, if Reba is removed from the tournament in a match against me without playing, then my Walkthrough to Maretti, even considering active participation in analyzing saves, will look less contradictory than your Walkthrough to me after a clean loss in a match against Reba. In other words, advancing without a fight is less critical than advancing after a loss. This is my opinion.
Pit for LM

I believe that according to the point
"if Rebellius is to be reinstated, then our match in the semi-finals should be counted, i.e., my two victories should be credited to Rebellius's score."

I haven't heard of such a thing in any sport.
Our score in a specific match is just our score. And it will definitely remain so if the tournament bracket remains as it is now.
Pit for LM

I was playing in his place.
So, you were a substitute for Rebellius? ;)
This is usually announced. Or is it like in soccer, where a player who receives a red card is removed from the field and misses the next match :D
Pit for LM

Put him directly against Maretti, and you in the lower bracket.
Now I understand who this was all beneficial to and why Reba allowed himself to be banned! It turns out it was his cunning plan to jump into the final in 2 rounds :p
Pit for LM

You wouldn't want your ill-wishers to think that you're looking for a second chance and need a victory at any cost, would you?))))) So to speak, you want to get a guaranteed rest in the bracket of pits...
Of course, I don't want that. But it will all depend on the situation with Reba and the tournament rules. Either way, one of us three will benefit from this in the end. The main thing is that the outcome corresponds to the rules. And we all have a second chance in the lower bracket :)
Pit for LM

Considering the Chinese issue. Again, not "ban!", but first think. And listen to all opinions, and find out his explanations.
It would be very nice if someone would take this on.

I watched 2 matches, with Gomunguls on Castle and Deep Mike on Balance, and I am ready to refute most of the claims made on the forum with arguments. But I'm already afraid to speak out, as he is my potential opponent in the lower bracket :D
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