DISCUSSIONS on “Rules for online games in HoMM3 and formulas for calculating player rating.” — Online Tournaments

R55Max

5/12/2012 6:20 PM UTC

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Dirty_Player

It's funny how the same people ask to reduce the number of restarts to save time, but in a neighboring thread, they argue for 10 minutes per turn. :D

That's absolutely true...

МУДРЫЙ - не обязательно старый, ОПЫТНЫЙ - не обязательно мудрый... обладатель и того и другого всегда должен помнить слова НАПОЛЕОНА БОНАПАРТА: Война состоит из непредусмотренных событий; В каждом большом деле всегда приходится какую-то часть оставить на долю :smile33: СЛУЧАЯ...

In reply to Pit for LM

Pit for LM

5/13/2012 12:53 AM UTC

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Here's something else to consider. - What we have now is not a set of isolated rules, but a system that works as a whole. Therefore, any proposed changes should take the entire system into account, rather than picking out individual parts. - Playing correctly with restarts is very important for the final result. Searching for the "chocolate" often leads to the opposite effect. - A year and a half ago, we discussed not just each point of the system, but literally every word. Read this thread, starting from page 3. What we have now was carefully refined by many people. We then decided to play a couple of seasons with these rules, and then, if there were any complaints, conduct a poll. There were no complaints then, so I added the rules for restarts permanently, not temporarily. Therefore, now that questions have arisen, we will conduct a poll, but please submit your suggestions in a form that can be immediately inserted into the Rules; it is difficult for me to guess what each of you means. - The seasonal rules are used in almost all tournaments. It's one thing to "play a fun game" before going to bed, and another to play in a tournament final with 70 people, which you have been preparing for for six months. It would be a shame to leave the result to the mercy of the random map generator. Perhaps it would be easier to agree on a game without restarts in the seasonal league than to "get stuck" in a tournament later? After all, in the seasonal league, you choose your opponents yourself and know each other quite well.

GoedenDag

Minimize the number of subjective restarts. Ideally, ban them altogether.

So, what is the proposal? Please provide the wording. I can't write something like that in the rules. What does "minimum" mean from your point of view? Or should they be removed altogether?

R55Max

...Secondly, I am not against the current system, but in favor of its reconstruction in the form of 111+111 or 112 or 113. Thirdly, I am against a pure 112.

Please provide the exact wording as well. What does "pure 112" mean? Currently, there are 2 proposals regarding only subjective restarts: What is currently in the rules:

4.3. Subjective restarts: Each player has the right to take a restart/restarts no later than the end of their turn on the corresponding day, i.e., to start a new game with a map regeneration. It is possible to take either 3 restarts on the first day of the game (111+111+111), or 2 restarts on the first and second days (111+112 or 112+111), or one restart on the third day (113).

And what CryptoNight proposed:

4.3. Subjective restarts: Each player has the right to take a restart/restarts no later than the end of their turn on the corresponding day, i.e., to start a new game with a map regeneration. It is possible to take either 2 restarts on the first day of the game (111+111), or one restart on the second day (112).

In reply to Pit for LM

Dirty_Player

5/13/2012 3:34 AM UTC

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Pit for LM

- The rules of the seasonal league are used in almost all tournaments. It's one thing to play a casual game before bed, and another to play in a tournament final with 70 players, which you've been preparing for for six months. It's frustrating to leave the result to chance. Maybe it's easier to agree in the seasonal league to play a game without restarts, rather than risk losing in a tournament later?

Those who want to reduce or eliminate restarts, read and think about it. In the end, in the seasonal league, you can always agree on the total number of days for restarts.

In reply to Pit for LM

dom2

5/13/2012 5:43 AM UTC

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A poll regarding this should be structured as follows:

1. Leave everything as it is.
2. Reduce the number of days for restarts.
3. Abstain/Don't know/Other/Let me vote.

Since the main goal is to reduce the time for restarts, the first poll should determine whether players even want changes (whether they are for or against reducing the number of days). There's no point in introducing several new types of restarts in the first poll, as it will inevitably dilute the votes of those who want to reduce the number of days, and the chances of leaving everything as it is will increase sharply.
If the conservative option wins, then exit.
Otherwise, conduct a second poll (to understand what specific changes we want). This is where you present concrete proposals.

P.S. I am personally in favor of reducing the number of days (and wouldn't mind even 111, but ONLY for the block).

In reply to Pit for LM

zoog

5/13/2012 6:20 AM UTC

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Pit for LM, create a poll regarding 1) the CryptoNight option, 2) the old rules; everything will be clear. Addition: This is for the seasonal league; for tournaments –

everyone can agree among themselves

)). Each tournament organizer, that is.

Added 1 minute ago

dom2

3. Abstain/Don't know/Other/Let me vote.

This is for tolerance, so that no one feels left out?)

In reply to Pit for LM

R55Max

5/13/2012 6:45 AM UTC

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The offer looks like this:

You can choose either two restarts on the first day (111+111), or one restart on the second day of the game (112), or one restart on the third day of the game (113).

МУДРЫЙ - не обязательно старый, ОПЫТНЫЙ - не обязательно мудрый... обладатель и того и другого всегда должен помнить слова НАПОЛЕОНА БОНАПАРТА: Война состоит из непредусмотренных событий; В каждом большом деле всегда приходится какую-то часть оставить на долю :smile33: СЛУЧАЯ...

In reply to Pit for LM

Pit for LM

5/13/2012 7:32 AM UTC

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Tootsie Pie

Create a poll with 1) the CryptoNight option, 2) the old rules; everything will be clear.

What does R55Max think? And maybe there will be other suggestions?

Tootsie Pie

This is for the season, for Tournaments -)). Every tournament organizer, that is.

Playing on restarts is quite a complex thing (you often see even experienced players saying they lost on restarts). Of course, the organizer can do anything. But the players will then have to immediately adapt to the new rules. It's one thing if a newbie and a not-so-newbie have experience playing with certain rules, and another thing when you sit down, open the rules, and learn them as you play.

dom2

It would be worth creating a poll in this form:
1. Leave everything as it was.
2. Reduce the number of days for restarts.
3. Abstain/Don't know/Other/Let me vote.
Since the main idea was to reduce the time for restarts, the first poll should determine whether players want changes (whether they are for or against reducing the time).
If the conservative option wins -> Exit.
Otherwise -> conduct a second question (to understand what specific changes we want?). This is where you have specifically formulated proposals.

In this case, you will need to conduct 3 polls. The first - leave/reduce, the second - specific proposals, the third - choose from the 2 that received the most votes. I would like to reduce the number of polls. Otherwise, some people start voting, and after 3 months, others join in.

dom2

It doesn't make sense to introduce several options for new types of restarts in the first poll - otherwise, the votes of those who want to reduce the number of days for restarts will inevitably be scattered, and the chances of leaving everything as it was will sharply increase.

I suggested making 50+% the criterion for the victory of a particular option. Therefore, it seems to me that, if we take into account all the proposals + add your 3rd option, the scattering of votes will not increase the chances of the old option. If the old option is not suitable, vote for any other (or abstain), even if your favorite is not on the list.
(similar to presidential elections)

In reply to Pit for LM

zoog

5/13/2012 8:00 AM UTC

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Message from dom2:
Since the main goal was to reduce the time spent on restarts,

I think that eliminating the possibility of gaining an unfair advantage is just as important. The skill diminishes when you can choose a convenient setup, and it's unpleasant when an opponent gains an advantage (and they will, as will I, because not taking advantage of the opportunity is foolish).
In my opinion, we should announce that "there will be 1 poll with 2 options" - if people are unhappy with that, then we will immediately and thoroughly discuss everything (S)=Front for the Liberation of Judea.

In reply to R55Max

Dirty_Player

5/13/2012 10:56 AM UTC

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R55Max

You can either take two restarts on the first day (111+111), or one restart on the second day of the game (112), or one restart on the third day of the game (113).

Why take the single 112 when you can take 113? It's a silly formulation.

Actually, 3 restarts at 111 take less time than one restart at 113, I think that's obvious. I don't understand the point of the changes.

In reply to Dirty_Player

CryptoNight

5/13/2012 12:09 PM UTC

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So, I think the wording of the poll is clear: either my proposal with a total of 2 rest days, or the old rules. And regarding Max's proposal, Dirty wrote 100% correctly – in my opinion, this option is unacceptable.

Зима 2011-12.

In reply to Pit for LM

Pit for LM

5/13/2012 2:35 PM UTC

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Apparently, R55Max's proposal should look like this:

4.3. Subjective restarts: each player has the right to take a restart/restarts no later than the end of their turn on the corresponding day, i.e., to start a new game with a map regeneration. It is possible to take either 2 restarts on the first day of the game (111+111), or one restart on the third day (113).

One restart on the third day can be taken on both 112 and 113 (it says there - no later than the end of your turn on the corresponding day, i.e., you can do it earlier).
Compared to the existing system, this reduces the number of restarts; it differs from CryptoNight's proposal by one day.
Again, I remind you that initially we had 111+113. That was another option.
Let's wait until next Saturday with the poll so that it doesn't turn out as usual: as soon as the poll is organized, one or two more options appear right away. This is a serious issue. And it's not worth redoing it several times. If we conduct such a poll, we will live according to its results, and not vote every season anew.

In reply to Pit for LM

Scorpiona

5/13/2012 3:38 PM UTC

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"Message from Pit for LM
- The rules of the seasonal league are used in almost all tournaments. It's one thing to play a casual game before bed, and another to play in a tournament final with 70 players, which you've been preparing for for six months. It's frustrating to leave the result to chance. Maybe it's easier to agree on a game without restarts in the seasonal league than to "get caught" in a tournament?

In the seasonal league, you can also have a maximum of 2 days for restarts, or even 1 day per block... But it's better not to touch the tournaments:) I absolutely agree that this aspect is more important in tournament games than in casual games!
What if we reduce the number of restarts in the seasonal league and add clarifications for tournament games?"

469326983

In reply to Niemand

Exit

5/13/2012 4:08 PM UTC

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GoedenDag

What—does luck really have such a strong influence on the outcome of games?
My opinion (possibly mistaken)—you need to be able to play any layout. That's what shows a player's skill.

It will give your opponent 5 Hives and 3 Griffin Conservatories on respawn with a bunch of gold and treasure chests, while you get nothing