Which Might and Magic universe are you referring to? — The unified universe of Might and Magic.

bobchik

4/17/2012 9:23 AM UTC

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OMEGA

It's just for the sake of it. Units that were once harmoniously combined have been replaced with who-knows-what. Yes, they came up with a backstory for them, otherwise it would be silly to introduce them. But a story like "these are undead from those who died out/don't exist anymore" is just an excuse to avoid fully developing the design.
Orcs were created by the Professor, and green-skinned, brutal orcs were created by Games Workshop in the form of Warhammer. Blizzard stole the concept from GW. Just saying. And yes, "greenskin" exists in Warhammer, Dungeons & Dragons, Disciples, and many other games and universes. It's impossible to determine the appearance of the races themselves based on a few parts of Heroes, as it changes too much from one part to another.
I don't understand what you mean here. I'm not against considering goblins and orcs as a race, where did I say that they weren't? And by the way, aren't goblins and orcs related to demons?
I couldn't get through Tolstoy's "War and Peace" in ninth grade, but I enjoyed reading Salvatore's "The Dark Elf" series. So, Tolstoy is overrated, Salvatore rules!

What does "harmoniously combined" have to do with it?
For me, the most important thing is that the gameplay works with the story, not the other way around, and not "balance." That is, if there is a lamassu with its own story, and there are no TR (Tower Rats), which don't have any story basis at all, I wouldn't be upset that they are not in the game.
And, as a collector at heart, I'm only happy when new monsters appear in the series. Thanks to one project, I wrote a mini-story for each Heroes monster, and there were difficulties due to their repetition... but that's another story.
Not everyone likes canned food; some people like fresh food. In the form of lamassu, arachnids, etc., instead of the tired old skeletons and canned goods with can openers. :)
These very lamassu add a touch to the image and story of the mages - how is that not adding multi-layeredness, diversity, depth, and volume to the universe, which you are advocating for - but within one setting, and not at the expense of mixing genres.

"greenskin"
Well, here's another contradiction - sometimes you need to avoid clichés, "secondary," "overused," "demons by the dozen," etc. But here, orcs are green everywhere, but not in Ashan!! Heretics! Ugh!
Uniqueness to hell! I'm not against their uniqueness; the more diverse orcs there are, the better. I'll be happy if orcs-Mongols, Aztecs, and even Arab orcs are added later. Again, this adds volume to the universe and moves away from stereotypes without going beyond the setting.

"War and Peace"
Steak is NF (Non-Fantasy), and flies are fantasy; I prefer to see them separately.
I can't stand fantasy as a genre; Heroes is one of the two or three exceptions. Therefore, a pickled cucumber with milk is not to my taste. I'd rather eat them separately and at different times, so help me God, they don't mix.
And I just don't like it when "authoritative opinions" are expressed, such as "stupidity," "nonsense," etc., without specifying: "in my humble opinion (imho)."
Like here:

In general, it has already been said somewhere that "they decided to make vampires and black knights one unit, hence the characteristic appearance of the upgrade." Although this idea is incredibly stupid. Especially considering the ridiculous appearance of the upgrade.

I don't think this image is stupid or ridiculous, contrary to this "authoritative statement."
At least, it seems that the Ashan vampires don't have an easy life, like Count Dracula, who could casually suck blood from packs of people.
Ashan is a cruel world where it takes more than just fangs and wings to get good blood. Because many possess magic, immunities, and other things, and even humans are not sheep and are capable of resisting various creatures just as well as these creatures. Therefore, auxiliary means in the form of armor and swords are necessary so as not to kick the bucket. You can also drink the blood of a dying victim after neutralizing it.
And it's not a fact that these vampires are satisfied with ordinary human blood - maybe they like delicacies - in the form of orcish, elven, mage blood - so their armor can be justified - if there was imagination and desire.

Ple-Sen

4/17/2012 9:59 AM UTC

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The issue isn't about the justification for the armor, but about its ridiculous appearance and the idiotic excuse of "why not a third-tier resource."

bobchik

4/17/2012 10:49 AM UTC

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It's fantasy, after all. Ple-Sen, do you have anything against breastplates? Although, it's the height of absurdity. What's the point of looking for beauty in armor when you can just imagine the amount of labor or the complexity of the manufacturing process that a blacksmith would have to go through to create even a single piece? Therefore, the fact that they are practical, and the difficulty of manufacturing them, is a priori dismissed, replaced by the statement "because that's how it is." It's similar to how in Star Wars, guys can communicate with each other in real-time, even though they are hundreds of light-years apart. How is that possible? The answer is simple: because that's how it is, because of an ancient, lost technology. Fan service works – everything is taken to the extreme, to the maximum, and to the absurd, as a tribute to visual beauty, at the expense of common sense. These are the laws of the genre.

ОMEGA

4/17/2012 10:51 AM UTC

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For me, it is primarily important that the gameplay serves the plot, and not the plot serves the gameplay and "balance."

And for me, it should all be a unified whole. If everything falls apart, then that's a problem.

there are no TRs where the plot base is not visible at all

Pha! Believe me, if there were TRs instead of Lamas, they would also write 3-4 meaningless sentences about them, just like with Lamas, and you would defend them too.
I'm not against something fresh, but why introduce this freshness instead of things that work well? No one says anything about the fact that slow, fat zombies have become flimsy, fast, damage-dealing ghouls. The appearance, stats, and name have been changed. But it worked because the zombies were useless. But here, unfortunately, it didn't work, because successful units were replaced.

These very Lamas add a touch to the image and history of the mages.

Which are not even in the game...

then you need to avoid clichés

Proof, where I wrote this, please. Otherwise, it's a lie and provocation. In general, take a look at post #100 in the topic; I wrote about this there.

Meatballs are NF, and flies are fantasy; I prefer to see them separately.

I'm explaining this for you... The example with "War and Peace" was an analogy to your phrase. You didn't grasp the history of the ancients, but rather its description by Demilich, that is, a rather boring retelling. And that's why you like the story of Ashan, because you played the 5th and 6th games, and you liked them. The question is in the presentation, not in the essence. You didn't like the presentation of the story, and that's why you didn't grasp it. If you had played all of Might and Magic and Heroes 1-4, you would look at it differently, wouldn't you? I'm not saying, "immediately vote for the old universe," I'm saying that since you are not familiar with the old universe, it is not up to you to judge, is it?

And I just don't like it when "authoritative opinions" are expressed, such as "stupidity," "nonsense," etc., without specifying: "in my humble opinion (imho)."

I read your posts in the topic, starting from page 6. I didn't find "imho" anywhere...

"Let's fly to the most beautiful sky. No matter how many times your wings break, keep trying."©Crono Crusade

bobchik

4/17/2012 10:53 AM UTC

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By the way, plot-wise, did the Dark Knights accidentally transition into the class of Heroes who ride horses? If so, then the question is: they exist in the game.
The absence of dragons is also quite justified plot-wise. It's not that the Dark Elves haven't gained enough power to resurrect them. And it seems that in Heroes of Might and Magic V, these skeletons are somewhere in the swamps, or getting them out of there is also not a simple process. And where would you get so many dragons, and make sure they are in good condition...

ОMEGA

4/17/2012 11:03 AM UTC

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Did the Dark Knights accidentally switch to the class of Heroes who ride horses?

They've been around since the third part. The Necropolis Warrior is a TR.

And where do you get so many dragons, and make sure they're in good condition?

They managed it in the Fifth installment. Or are you saying that in the 400 years between the 6th and 5th games, so many dragons were killed that it was enough to replenish the Necropolis army? Understand, you can't justify it with the plot; the developers simply didn't include them in the game, and later fans can come up with some kind of story to fit it. But the truth lies not in the plot, but in the gameplay.

"Let's fly to the most beautiful sky. No matter how many times your wings break, keep trying."©Crono Crusade

In reply to ОMEGA

bobchik

4/17/2012 11:08 AM UTC

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OMEGA

Provide proof where I wrote this. Otherwise, it's a lie and provocation. In general, take a look at post number 100 in the thread; I was discussing this very topic there.

Well, I was generally considering negative posts directed at Ashan – nothing personal.

Let me explain it to you... The example with "War and Peace" was an analogy to your statement. You didn't grasp the history of the Ancients, but rather its description by Demilich, which is a rather boring retelling. And that's why you like the history of Ashan because you played the 5th and 6th installments, and you enjoyed them. The issue is in the presentation, not the essence. You didn't like the presentation of the story, and that's why you couldn't get into it. If you had played all of Might and Magic and Heroes 1-4, you would have a different perspective, wouldn't you? I'm not saying, "immediately vote for the old universe," I'm saying that since you're not familiar with the old universe, it's not your place to judge, is it?
I read your posts in the thread, starting from page 6. I didn't find "imho" anywhere...

I didn't grasp the history of the Ancients simply because it's not my thing. I've played Heroes 1-4 (except for the add-ons for the fourth and the chronicles for the third). I liked the plot in the third game, but when I learned the "truth," it didn't excite me. And in general, that post was a parody of criticizing Xela. ))))
I don't use "imho" because I use personal pronouns and words like "I think," "I believe," "in my opinion," etc. – I consider this a sufficient equivalent for identifying a personal opinion.

Added 4 minutes ago
Omega, we seem to have different approaches to games.
For the most part, I play games not for the gameplay, but for the story. Aspects of gameplay don't interest me much, and there's no difference whether it's a super game or a game for the Dendy.

In reply to bobchik

XEL

4/17/2012 12:00 PM UTC

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bashing Xela

Let's not dictate whether I can express my opinion or not, and how I should do it. If you don't like my point of view, it doesn't mean I should adjust it to suit you, and you can tell me what you didn't like. Thank you for your attention.

ОMEGA

4/17/2012 12:01 PM UTC

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Well, I was generally considering the negative posts directed at Ashan – nothing personal.

Of course, nothing personal, you just twisted my words.

But when I learned the "truth," it didn't excite me.

And it didn't excite me either. I didn't care much about how the world was created. Krigans are demons from the underworld or aliens from another planet – what's the fundamental difference? I'm interested in the state of the world at the time of the game. This "truth" was such a revelation that all the campaigns suddenly became meaningless. I started looking at the fact that with the Blade of Armageddon, they wanted to destroy the world, at the fact that Lord Haart betrayed King Griffonheart, and Katerina took revenge on him, and at the fact that Valmar betrayed Sandro, yeah. Please, don't make me laugh. The role of the Krigans in the campaigns of the first four parts of Heroes is not as great as you describe.

Omega, we seem to have different approaches to games.
For the most part, I play games not for the gameplay, but for the plot. Aspects of the gameplay don't interest me much, and it doesn't matter if it's a super game or a game for Dendy.

I'll keep quiet about unfairly offended games for Dendy. And yes, we have different approaches. I didn't think that games are played exclusively for the plot. I read books for the plot, I can watch movies. But a bad game with a great plot won't attract me, and frankly, I don't know of any such games. When a game is good, and the plot is mediocre, there are many examples, but the opposite... In general, a computer game is multifaceted, and it should be good as a whole, and not just one of its parts. If only the plot is good, it's bad; if only the gameplay is good, it's also bad. I need everything. The only thing I can overlook is the level of graphics and sound. But, note, it's the level of graphics, not its quality. Let the game be two-dimensional, but beautiful, we know it's possible. But, even if we take the plot, if we take the world of the games, regardless of the gameplay, the result will not change. I didn't really like Heroes 4 in terms of gameplay, but even in it, the plot of the campaigns (in the original 4, and not in the sloppy add-ons) I liked more than in 5 and 6. This is not to mention my favorite and incomparable Heroes 2 and 3. The world? I also like the old world more – Enroth. And Axeoth is also better than Ashan, to be honest. And I can easily explain why I like it more, although, if you think about it, you'll understand this from my posts in this thread. I like the old worlds for their old-school feel. Not in the sense that they appeared earlier, no. Just, they don't have all these kind orcs, outcast but cute necromancers, and other modern archetypes in the form of "spiritual and deep personalities." Evil is evil, good is good, and orcs are just barbarians. And this does not prevent them from cooperating when necessary. There are intrigues, betrayals, forced alliances, and forced conflicts. There are reflections on life and our place in it. There is a place for simple love without exploits, and there is a place for exploits without love. Here, the Heroes save the world, suffering for everyone, and here they simply seize power for themselves. The world is rich and diverse, alive. A few sentences are enough to describe the world, and what is not written is taken for granted. We know the history of the Spectators from the biography of Ajit, but we don't know the history of the Manticores, and there are no unnecessary questions about why. That's what I love about the Old Universe. We are not given the history of each unit in the description, but everything is done in such a way that we don't need it. And that's Great, with a capital "G"!

"Let's fly to the most beautiful sky. No matter how many times your wings break, keep trying."©Crono Crusade

XEL

4/17/2012 12:31 PM UTC

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I agree with Omega. The story is more important to me than the gameplay, but the point is not that at all. By the way, we know the history of the Spectators not from Ajit's biography, but from the sixth installment; there is even a dungeon with their creator in it. Manticores and hydras are also creations of the Warlocks.

ОMEGA

4/17/2012 12:39 PM UTC

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I know, XEL. But, as I mentioned in previous posts, in this particular argument, given that the opponents are unfamiliar with the Might and Magic series, I'm focusing solely on Heroes of Might and Magic. It's simply easier for me because I encountered Might and Magic after playing Heroes for many years. When the fourth installment of Heroes was released, I only then bought Might and Magic 8 to see what this thing was with familiar images. After that came 6 and 7, and then I dug up a collection of RPGs at a radio market, which included parts two through five, but, I confess, I never finished them, I couldn't handle the gameplay...

Ple-Sen

4/17/2012 12:57 PM UTC

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there are no TRs where the storyline isn't apparent at all.

Actually, in the fifth game, they had a pretty solid base. These are the very best of vampire society. They're like members of some kind of order, but I can't say for sure.

as a tribute to visual beauty

The problem is that their armor doesn't look beautiful; it looks funny and ridiculous.

Adagio

4/17/2012 2:18 PM UTC

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Since I like Fortress from the third game and Sanctuary from the sixth, I started thinking some time ago about the possibility of combining these Factions into one in subsequent parts of the series (not necessarily in Ashan). Here's what I came up with: as you know, rivers can start in swamps. They usually flow into seas. You could try to connect the marine environment with the swamp biocenosis through river systems. This creates a kind of unification of amphibious forces. As representatives of the swamp populations, the following would look good: first, jumping kappas with toxic liquid in their head cavities; second, amphibian lizards (like the second-level unit from Fortress, but paler in color and with more various fins or at least membranes), armed with the most primitive types of firearms; and third, potential champions of this Faction – regenerating hydras with their inherent ability to inflict massive damage without fear of retaliation. Finally, marine creatures in the form of mermaids with the appearance of Sanctuary priestesses (but, of course, with normal hair and a fish tail), possessing the ability to put the opponent into a state of critical forgetfulness (blocking flight and ranged attacks), and nagas, similar to kensai, but without ethnic "equipment," so to speak. There are also ideas regarding the introduction of river inhabitants – river spirits, lol, stream spirits, but with greater transparency, without piercings and ornaments on the body. This results in a complete absence of flying units, but it is compensated by the skillful use of close combat by nagas and hydras, as well as the ability of mermaids to make the enemy forget how to fly and/or shoot. The entire army would look great in a single color scheme (gray or seafoam green). Naturally, this implies a complete departure from Eastern culture and the adoption of stylistic neutrality. Although, one could consider creating something individual.

In general, this is approximately what I envision for the aquatic forces Faction. Kirin and Yuki-Onna, IMHO, don't quite fit here, since the former, in my opinion, is more suitable for forest elves, and the latter... for northern elves. :smile04: As for sharks, I would either move them to the neutral units of the tropics and jungles, or remove them altogether.

Happy Life

4/17/2012 5:42 PM UTC

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Morni, whether you agree or not, let's discuss it in the Warcraft thread in the off-topic section. I just brought them up as an example to break stereotypes, not to start a flame war.

I came in, saw, and added another opinion. It's not like it's a bad thing.

My sword, my trusted ally, unphased by my aspect.

Adagio

5/6/2012 10:42 AM UTC

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Question for those who understand something about the Asylum. Regarding the style.

Haven – European culture
Sylvan – Slavic culture
Sanctuary – Buddhist culture
Academy – Islamic culture
Fortress – Scandinavian culture
Stronghold – ? (Mongolian (5) or Aztec (6) culture)
Dungeon – ?
Necropolis – ? (Egyptian (6) culture)
Inferno – ?

Can anyone clearly correlate them? What culture does each faction ultimately adhere to?