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Offline Oelm
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#3041
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Too harsh judgments. First of all, the situation here is such that a blowout is definitely not happening. The advantage is something like 60-40 at most, after all, the castles are relatively balanced.

Also, Conflux is simply a top-tier castle. If it gets the right setup, it can crush any other. Inferno vs Barbarian — apparently Inferno is stronger, because it is no worse in tempo, and in the late game it is simply unkillable. I consider the Inferno vs Dungeon matchup even, so similarly. Ramp vs Barbarian — I've long been debating Rampart in this pairing. Tower vs Barbarian — this is unclear. Tempo takes a heavy hit due to the penalty, but the quality of territories is incomparable. Also, Tower has become more dynamic now due to the changes in the build tree.

By the way, if you're talking about the match with Cobra where there were native secondary skills, then of course the situation changes due to the large growth of bears.
Земля нуля.
Все в ней нулево и кукольно.
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Offline bRitvo4kA
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#3042
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Stronghold on Jebus Cross is a fairly average town. It has a number of drawbacks that are largely compensated by its advantages.

Drawbacks:
- Ground with movement penalty (inconvenient for transporting Wyverns and Angels without Pathfinding)
- Low init speed of scout heroes (to build all levels in the town, scout heroes ride wolves)

Advantages:
+ Unpretentious in resources (mostly only requiring wood, ore, and crystal. Other resources can be sold on the market, thereby gaining a significant financial bonus)
+ There is a chance for stables (they do not spawn near Swamp, Inferno, and Tower)
+ Behemoths with 300 HP are not too difficult or quick to build (effective in Dragon Utopias and beyond)

In my opinion, the outsiders on Jebus Cross remain Tower, Inferno, and possibly Rampart.
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Offline FireToSky
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#3043
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He simply tears the rest apart (Rampart, Tower, Inferno, Conflux).
Uh...
Okay, no need to bash Inferno; I'm ready to tear any Castle apart on any map!
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Offline Javdet
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#3044
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Yeah, I didn't quite get the point about Might and Magic VI. In my opinion, Barbarians have two problems, and they are quite solvable. 1 - Poor leveling of Tyrus (maybe it's just me, but I've observed it in replays as well). 2 - Relatively expensive start when upgrading dogs. But after that, if you have money and the roads are good, I wouldn't risk competing against Tyrus.
Даже если вас съели - у вас два выхода:smile19:

Зима 2011-12.
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Offline R55Max
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#3045
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To FireTosky:
I've attached the table; don't forget to correct the movement value for the diagonally adjacent plains tile during the initial phase of combat – it's 141.
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МУДРЫЙ - не обязательно старый, ОПЫТНЫЙ - не обязательно мудрый... обладатель и того и другого всегда должен помнить слова НАПОЛЕОНА БОНАПАРТА: Война состоит из непредусмотренных событий; В каждом большом деле всегда приходится какую-то часть оставить на долю :smile33: СЛУЧАЯ...
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Offline Dirty_Player
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#3046
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FireToSky
Uh...
Okay, don't badmouth Inferno, I'm ready to tear any Castle apart on any template against them!!!
Ready to tear you apart on Jebus Cross with Barbarian vs Inferno after the new patch :cool:

Of course, Conflux can dominate like that — get a Book of Fire from a respawn or Pandora's Box, and the game is as good as over. It's also obvious that there's no "gap" of 9 games out of 10 between any pair of factions. You can argue about faction strength all you want, but Barbarian has what it takes for a good and fast-paced game on Jebus Cross: a strong starting stack, a powerful and fast level 7 unit, a decent starting hero — this allows you to set a pace that, for example, Inferno or Rampart can't keep up with. If Barbarian gets an external dwelling of bears, the game becomes much easier. Barbarian's main need is starting gold, because the wolf upgrade is very expensive.

Barbarian's skill tree is certainly not ideal, but it's acceptable. IMHO.

As for 8mm6, Barbarian shouldn't be in a bad spot there either. Though I won't judge 8mm6.
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Offline R55Max
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#3047
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What are the weaknesses of the Rampart if archers have access to good upgrades?
МУДРЫЙ - не обязательно старый, ОПЫТНЫЙ - не обязательно мудрый... обладатель и того и другого всегда должен помнить слова НАПОЛЕОНА БОНАПАРТА: Война состоит из непредусмотренных событий; В каждом большом деле всегда приходится какую-то часть оставить на долю :smile33: СЛУЧАЯ...
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Offline bRitvo4kA
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#3048
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R55Max
What are the weaknesses of the Rampart if archers have access to good upgrades?
If someone throws a couple of dragon nests at you, by the end of the week, you'll only be able to defeat them in a Fortress.
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Offline R55Max
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#3049
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bRitvo4kA
If he throws a couple of dragon nests at you, by the end of the week, you'll barely be able to defeat them in a Fortress.
And if he doesn't give a Barbarian or an Inferno a level 7 unit, you can also argue that Conflux is a tough matchup. If you remove Swamp, Castle, and Inferno, then Rampart isn't weaker than anyone. I don't know who that Necromancer is.
МУДРЫЙ - не обязательно старый, ОПЫТНЫЙ - не обязательно мудрый... обладатель и того и другого всегда должен помнить слова НАПОЛЕОНА БОНАПАРТА: Война состоит из непредусмотренных событий; В каждом большом деле всегда приходится какую-то часть оставить на долю :smile33: СЛУЧАЯ...
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Offline GoD
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#3050
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bRitvo4kA
If he drops a couple of stashes of dragons on you, by the end of the week you can at most crank them out in the fort.

Andrey, I take it you're talking about Jebus?
If so, placing greens in the fort with a couple of stashes is very good) but such setups are rare... I wouldn't say Ramp is weak - a very good town on Jebus, and on other templates too...

Added after 2 minutes
R55Max
And if Barbarian, Inferno, doesn't get dealt a 7th level, you could also argue, Conflux is tough too. If you remove Dungeon, Castle, and Inferno, then Ramp is no weaker than anyone. Who Necropolis is there, I don't know.

Here, as I understand, it's also about Jebus...Playing on Jebus isn't just about having level 7 stashes and taking them while building the dwelling, even for Castle...if you have them - good, if not - oh well, the main thing is something else...
"РЫЦАРЬ АПОКАЛИПСИСА"

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Offline Captain
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#3051
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I like the Rampart because the chance of finding unicorn lairs is twice as high, due to the fact that these lairs can be either one-hex or two-hex in size. And Rampart heroes have the highest chance of obtaining Earth magic for mass slow (besides Inferno and Conflux).
Дипломатия - искусство говорить собаке "хорошая собачка" до тех пор пока не найдешь подходящую палку.
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Offline Ihtiandr
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#3052
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Captain
And which heroes of Rampart have the highest chance of getting Earth magic for mass slow (besides Inferno and Conflux)?

If we're talking about Shadow of Death, here are the points for Earth magic for different types of warrior heroes (out of 112):

Knight - 2
Ranger - 3
Alchemist - 3
Demoniac - 3
Death Knight - 4
Overlord - 3
Barbarian - 3
Beastmaster - 3
Planeswalker - 3

Almost all heroes have the same chance of getting Earth magic; Castle has the lowest, and Necropolis has the highest.
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Offline Dirty_Player
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#3053
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The Rampart has an advantage in the strength of its troops. This is certainly good, but it's not enough.
Regarding building dragons, it's a very debatable issue. Even if you upgrade them, it won't give you as many bonuses as Archangels or Bears. Golden Dragons are the worst monster of all level 7 monsters. They can be killed with an explosion (and in WoG, even with Arcomage), and you can't cast antimagic on them or resurrect them. (With a black orb, it's a decent unit, no doubt).
I like the Rampart because the chance of finding unicorn lairs is twice as high, due to the fact that in the game, these lairs can be one-hex or two-hexes.
If I'm not mistaken, this was supposed to be fixed in WoG. In any case, it was fixed for the Conflux, and I pointed out the issue with unicorns.

P.S. The maximum chance for Earth magic is 8, for Necromancers, if I haven't forgotten the details.
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Offline Oelm
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#3054
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In my opinion, the quality of the 7th level units of Rampart and Barbarian is just not comparable, of course in favor of the former. Dirty, you wrote some April Fools' humor. Bears are good exclusively against neutrals, and even then they are probably the most useless units after Skeletons. The punching power of a GR big (without army support) is roughly equal to the punching power of an Angel, while Gold already crushes it. In FB they are dangerous if there is a very large number of them. For example, when you see a scout hero heading to GD, it's a whole question of how to neutralize him. When you see a scout hero boosted on a Behemoth, well... I just haven't seen such a thing. And in general, imps into Gold? First of all, there might be Sphere and Resurrection, and secondly, imps into Gold is an extremely weak move in FB. Well, imps, in response Mass Slow, and a rush in two rounds, you kill everyone except the Bears, and Blind them — a perfectly realistic scenario.
Земля нуля.
Все в ней нулево и кукольно.
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Offline Dirty_Player
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#3055
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Oelm
In my opinion, the quality of the Rampart and Barbarian towns is incomparable, of course in favor of the former. Dirty wrote some April Fools' humor. Bears are good exclusively against neutrals, and even then they are probably the most useless units after Skeletons. The breakthrough power of a GR behemoth (without army support) is roughly equal to the breakthrough power of an Angel, while Gold dragons already outclass them. In FB they are dangerous if you have a very large number of them. For example, when you see a scout hero heading to GD, the whole question is how to neutralize him. When you see a scout hero sped up on a Behemoth, well... I've just never seen such a thing. And implanting Gold dragons at all? First, there might be Orb and Resurrection, and second, implanting Gold dragons is an extremely weak move in FB. Well, after the implant, mass Slow in response and a rush in two rounds, you kill everyone except the bears, and then Blind them — that's a perfectly realistic scenario.
Don't you dare teach me how to run finals. I do know a thing or two about that. Upgraded bears are the strongest level 7 unit, which destroys anyone when equal in numbers (remember how VLK lost money to Medium). You can tell someone else about rushes in two rounds. Every situation is individual; you can't reason like that here. Besides, in Full VT, Earth magic is not always upgraded.
You say that Gold dragons are strong when there are many of them. And how many is many? If you have 2 external dwellings, then by the second week you'll have 8 of them. 8*250=2000 with Jebus Cross development — that's a matter of one Implosion. And how many resources do you need to spend to build and upgrade them (considering that the upgrade is only possible on 122)? When building Gold dragons, your strike stacks will only be Wyverns and Angels; you can forget about the rest of the meat, unless of course the external dwellings provide more.

Besides bears, Tyraxor also has Wolves with insane damage (especially at two Swords) and the same Angels/Wyverns, so the army is potentially stronger.

I did have a laugh about a scout hero on a Behemoth, thanks :D :D :D

You always know how to play best in any situation. So I don't want to argue, because it's pointless. I don't even understand why you brought up this topic about Barbarians if you know everything better than everyone :)
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