Posts from What do the official forums and the fan forums want?

Pit, I don't doubt for a second that you are correctly assembling letters into words, words into sentences, and sentences into text—everything seems clear on the surface—but it feels as if the actual meaning is escaping you. Or perhaps you are simply trying to convey some point, but speaking in your own language that I just cannot understand.

For example: it's obvious that people who "voted" only for VT include both SoD haters (I hope the word is clear) and simply those who prefer VT. That is how I interpret the meaning of the poll results. What this means to you, I do NOT understand (only SoD haters??), and conversely, are those who voted only for SoD really "only those" who under no circumstances will play the VT version?

Furthermore, there are technical problems with the VT championship which, due to my lack of programming qualifications, I cannot resolve. As for the prospects—I don't know; most likely, it will just be a regular tournament. Why write about ideas to merge SoD and VT in a VT tournament, I do NOT understand. Is this sarcasm? But I wrote quite serious proposals; just answer honestly: as the host and organizer, I have made such-and-such decisions. The matter will then be settled.

I don't know how appropriate it is to talk about player skill, but the POINT of that phrase was that the voice of people who have never played HL+U templates (or played 2-3 times), and secondly, those who have never played VT, is NOT EQUAL to the voice of people who have successfully practiced both versions over a long period of time. The vote of England and Jamaica in FIFA is not equal. Not because Jamaica is worse, but because their achievements are different.

Oelm, it's hard to disagree with you that without attracting strong mapmakers, the tournament won't be what we'd ideally like to see, but: what you're suggesting is a very raw idea. There will still be the same conflict of interests. It will boil down to the same "I don't want this, I won't do this; organizer, listen to me and do it my way, etc." I have experience running combined tournaments, and not just one, and the headaches from such whims were overwhelming. Come up with a normal, working scheme, and if you succeed, then I don't see any reason why all the strongest players couldn't participate.

Well, think about it too. Perhaps those who consider themselves SoD players have their own original thoughts. My main conclusions are -

First - the 14-11 result does not indicate a victory for the WT haters, but rather that a compromise should be sought)
Second - playing HOTA+U templates and/or Jebus Cross on the WT version, simply because the late game in SoD is inferior.

I'm not even mentioning that it would be interesting to include a mirror template as one of...

Still, in more detail: for example, make a circle of 7 templates in the tournament, say, with Smka-Balance-Panic, Mininosta played on the SoD version, HOTA+U and, let's say, Jebus Cross, on WT. Here, at least, - formally, I don't see where any friction could come from.

I think about it day and night. For now:smile32:

So, wouldn't separating them by versions and templates, as Oelm suggested, solve the problem? The only thing I don't understand is what to do with the VT-haters who love 8mm6a).

understand and forgive...)

I’ll add a little from myself. In the short time I’ve been on HeroesWorld, I’ve come to the conclusion that reaching a compromise between the versions is unlikely ever to happen, because if there are those who will under no circumstances play SoD, there will also be another person who will not play HotA.
Why does this happen? Simply because these are different versions of the same game, and it doesn’t matter why people prefer one version or another — it’s each player’s individual choice. Even if a new version appears (a fusion of SoD and HotA, some sort of SoHA), some players will still stay only with SoD or only with HotA. So there’s no need to invent anything. Organizers should always set one version as the default (base) when organizing tournaments, and use the second version by mutual agreement if those who prefer the other version are playing among themselves.

Let me speculate a little. I don’t know exactly when soccer was invented, but for example, the English invented soccer and played it. Then came people who liked indoor soccer on small fields more, so they invented futsal, and a new game emerged. Then people went further, and a third group invented beach soccer, forming a third coalition of people who prefer that third game. It’s all soccer, and players intersect with each other in some ways, but they stay and play what feels closer to them, the soccer they chose. It’s still soccer and has a lot in common, but you also can’t really compare them, because they’re different versions.

Wimbledon and Roland Garros were mentioned — Grand Slam tournaments, one game and everything is the same, but the only difference is the surface they play on (grass and clay). Yet that difference is so great that many Tour players never play on one surface or the other in their entire lives. For example, there are players who prefer clay surfaces (Volandri, Verdasco... actually many Spanish players), and throughout the year they only play tournaments ON clay surfaces — you can’t drag them to grass tournaments. They play on grass only to remain in the Association of Tennis Professionals (and because the prize money and ranking points are the highest), but according to Tour regulations, there are mandatory tournaments they have to participate in. From those that players choose according to their preference, they pick clay and that’s it. Likewise, there are grass-court players who try to avoid clay. The same goes for our SoD and HotA.

The only way out, if the goal is to unite SoD and HotA, to merge the HoMM community, is to impose obligations on every player to play both SoD and HotA, just like different surfaces in tennis. Only a MOTIVATOR can force a player to take on these obligations (to play an unloved version) — an organization that can pay MONEY for playing in tournaments.

Wouldn't separating by versions and templates, as Oelm suggested, solve the problem? The only thing I don't understand is what to do with the WoG haters who love 8mm6a).

IT DOESN'T SOLVE IT!!!!

The problem will then be this:
which templates should be declared? For example, 3 SoD templates and 2 WoG templates; it's clear how it will end, just like the reverse situation. If the number of templates is equal, for example, 3 and 3, then whoever marks first will decide.

And it's really unclear "what to do with the WoG haters who love 8mm6a)." I myself have written many times that XLs on SoD are, to put it mildly, ...
But if foreigners appear in the tournament, it would be stupid to force them to play WoG; I think we can tolerate 8mm on SoD.
We can only hope that in most cases, opponents will be able to agree.

But in general, I don't see any problem here.
Even though I would prefer to play on WoG, if a situation arises where the opponent absolutely wants to play on SoD, I will make concessions without any hesitation. The main thing is the desire to find a compromise. And I think most players will be able to agree - if they want to.

Of the people I know who don't accept SoD, I only know 3. Vic has stepped away, so there's Ivor and Samurai left. Samurai didn't vote, which means the tournament doesn't matter to him. It's a pity about Ivor; he's a good player and a person who has done and continues to do a lot for the game. I think I've listed everyone. The other WoG players have been seen playing on SoD, so if more ardent WoG players appear, we can conclude that the tournament interests them less than their made-up principles.

It seems that's exactly what's happening. There appear to be more hardcore Warlords of the Wastelands (WOTW) haters than Shades of Darkness (SOD) haters, and even those who play WOTW can also play SOD (though they might not want to), so by default, SOD ends up being the preferred version. In this situation, SOD haters, who are unwilling to compromise, end up excluding themselves from tournaments.

However, WOTW haters also exclude themselves from tournaments due to various reasons, like the mirror match. Maybe they should be enticed with that?

It's a different matter that VT-haters cut themselves off from tournaments for various reasons, like mirror matches. Maybe they should be lured in with this?

But how do you lure them in?
I organized a tournament in the summer, and you know the results – only one SOD player signed up. You can't force them to participate.

IMHO, the FB system should be rotated. This year SoD, next year WT with HL templates, then a mix/SoD 200%/Mirror and so on. Let people decide for themselves whether the next format suits them or not.
You can't please everyone all the time anyway. And who specifically do you want to see there? You have some mystical "haters" everywhere, although in reality, people are always ready to compromise if they have a desire to play; it's just that they've probably had too much of it already.

1. Wic was "spotted" in SoD, and even Samurai, and Cobra, and Forrest, and other players exist who used both versions but did not change their opinion. Well, SoD is pathetic, and nothing can be done about it. Well, you can play all kinds of camper nonsense there like Panic, but there is little strategy, and often none at all—just hoard your resources, and hoard.

Max, this is where you are wrong: your example with football is such that you simply blatantly flattered SoD by comparing it to classic football. A good, polished game version should have a minimum of rules. But look at how many restrictions we have at HeroesWorld? You can't use certain buildings, scrolls are also restricted, you can't level up these heroes, and so on. Rather, the SoD version is still just backyard football, the kind each of us played in the schoolyard on a sandy pitch instead of a lawn, with a cheap leatherette ball, and on top of that, without stupid rules like offsides.

Thank you to Baratorch, he wrapped the SoD version in a beautiful package, but the miles of rules remain, just as pairs of Swamp-Castle were played, they are still played. And how many games were Inferno-Conflux, Dungeon-Tower?

About templates: for example, you could make a set such that it would be disadvantageous for a SoD player to veto only the HotA templates, and vice versa. For example: Mini-Nostalgia, Panic, SMCA, 8mm6a, 8xm12a, Mirror. And the first player vetoes by lot.

And finally, I will once again tactlessly express myself regarding the "cursed" skill. I believe that amidst all the squabbles, wars, and so on, the most interesting and meaningful tournaments were precisely when both versions of the game were supported. Favorites - 2. The 2012 Tournament - all-random. There were simply phenomenal matches, with incredible suspense and struggle. The last favorites tournament, which Maretti won, did not even come close.

You can never please everyone.

100%
There will always be dissatisfied people. Sometimes for good reason, and sometimes just because - they might want to use the bathroom here.

In my opinion, the system for running Factions Battles should be alternated. This year, SOD, next year, WT with HL templates, the following year, a mix/SOD 200%/Mirror match, etc. Let people decide for themselves whether the next format suits them or not.

I disagree with that. It will alienate a significant portion of the players. In my opinion, a tournament with a large number of participants is needed, and for that, their opinion should be taken into account.

The main reason for not switching to VT is laziness. A couple of times I asked the same streamers on SK2TV why they are still torturing themselves with this SoD. They replied that they've simply grown used to it and don't feel like getting acquainted with all the conveniences of the VT version.
Of course, it's better to follow a ton of rules and prohibitions and play the same games and tactics over and over...

Message from Oelm:

Max, you're wrong about one thing: your football example is such that you simply flattered SOD by comparing it to classic football.

I'm not comparing football to SOD. With the football example, I was comparing different types of football to each other, and they all emerged and evolved from each other, with the classic version giving rise to the others. VT emerged from SOD, and what each person chooses to play is up to them; the desire or lack of desire to play one or the other will always exist.
And no matter how many versions of a game exist, they will each have their own community, and you can't force someone to switch from one to another without a significant incentive, simply because they prefer one over the other.

It's the same as saying that futsal is better than beach football, or vice versa. No one can be convinced that VT is better than SOD, and even if they are, people still won't rush to play VT, because even the most beautiful and wonderful VT (censored, equivalent to "to hell with it") won't be needed. If someone likes to eat salty popcorn, removing the salty version from sale won't force them to buy the sweet version, because they don't like it. It's important to understand that each person is an individual and chooses what is closer to them, not what some aunt Moti or grandma Valya think.

Heroes cannot be compared to anything at all, so all comparisons are just figurative attempts to say something using examples that everyone can understand.

And in general, if you played SOD before the HD mod, it's now much more interesting and enjoyable to play with it. So the versions will remain on opposite sides of the barricade.