Poll regarding changes to the AK regulations. — Tournament History

Дубровин Павел

16 years ago

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Wlk777

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No, not because of Vitalik. For me, the principle of the supremacy of the Decision of the authorized Body regarding Competitive Matches (as a result - disqualification/ineligibility of the Player) over the opinion of the Tournament Organizer, who opposes this, became important.

SEM_56

16 years ago

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Pete's work is very important, but not everyone appreciates it...
You can't please everyone. We are users (damn it), but we live our own heroic lives...

SpiriTT

16 years ago

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I've written this for the second time in the last month. This time, I'm writing it here.
I don't want to argue with you! Why?

Pit for LM

Great question from a member of the TC.

Will you show me where it's written?
Since that's the case, maybe it's worth updating the information a bit? Or at least send a message on ICQ, even if it's just a few words.
Did you read the ICQ message, Petya? Maybe you should have written there first?

Pit for LM

If the forum considers my work as a tournament curator to be bad, let's choose another Curator. But someone has to do all this work.

No one thinks that! And you know it! What's the point of this?

Pit for LM

Currently, the official ones are...

I wish I knew what's going on...
Here's the question. Since everything is so official and according to the rules.
Couldn't you at least notify the tournament organizer, me specifically, about this? Or again, just write on ICQ? Maybe I missed something at some point – probably, I don't know. You can correct me then. Maybe it was self-evident, I don't know. For me, it wasn't so obvious.

Dubrovin Pavel

In my opinion, the recognition by the Tournament Organizers of the decision regarding the Championship (and, as a result, the disqualification/ban from further participation in the Tournament), which is made by an authorized structure of the Resource (whether it's the AC or any other structure specifically created by the Wold players to resolve disputed matches), is a necessary and mandatory condition for the normal functioning of the Resource.

I don't understand how different letter forms in the rules will affect the operation of the resource.

Dubrovin Pavel

I can say that I didn't come to this conclusion right away, but I can't go back on it now, and without the adoption of this amendment, I don't see the point in my further participation in the Wold AC.

Emmm.... An ultimatum?
What's written below is just a stream of consciousness. There's no hidden meaning in it, I assure you, don't look for it.
P.S. I held out for a long time. I'm sick of all the politics. It's freaking annoying.

Aren't you tired of it yourselves?:smile34:

Added 4 minutes ago

Wlk777

Pit, Dubrovin, Darth, Spirit, Cash, and others – sort it out among yourselves and don't involve the whole forum in your disputes.

That's right. This poll is unnecessary. You should have just asked those who are involved and discussed all the "pros" and "cons." Maybe there wouldn't have been all this.

In reply to Wlk777

Dirty_Player

16 years ago

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Wlk777

P.S. No one voted for Vitalik's honesty back then – compared to that, 56% for Britva is a lot.

Do you remember your first ban? There was only one person who voted for you then. It seems that person's efforts weren't in vain. ;) The key phrase in your quote is "back then." People change!

Wlk777

Great. So, implement these procedures for removing bans instead of putting on a circus first with a vote for a "second chance" and then raising a topic like this, but don't say that it wasn't started because of Vitalik. Pit, Dubrovin, Darti, Spirit, Cash, and others – agree among yourselves and don't involve the whole forum in your disputes.

You were unbanned last time through a similar vote! Remember? And you're right about the decision being made within the organization. No one discussed this in the chat with the organizers. Pasha has been told many times that his polls are nonsense. Such a change needs to be implemented.

In reply to Dirty_Player

Hermit

16 years ago

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Dirty_Player

Pasha has been told a hundred times that his polls are nonsense.

The polls are not nonsense. I was personally surprised by only one poll, "Is an anti-cheat system needed or not," but even that was correct; it's always a good idea to find out what players think about this... There was nothing wrong with any of the polls. They were all relevant... As for this poll, as far as I remember, to implement a change, it needs 2/3 of the total votes. Even if we consider that some votes may not be counted yet, this is clearly not enough to implement these changes. So, for now, the anti-cheat system does not prohibit a player with a championship title from participating in a tournament. The decision to accept this change or not should be made by everyone: both players and organizers, not just the organizers. And finally, the fact that this change will not be accepted is not a reason to leave the anti-cheat system, just as the fact that Britvochka was not given a championship title is not. Things don't always go as you want, but that's not a reason to leave the anti-cheat system.

Added 3 minutes later
Well, who said that the polls are nonsense? Let's do a poll: are his polls nonsense or not, so that people stop calling something nonsense that isn't nonsense.

In reply to Hermit

SpiriTT

16 years ago

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Hermit

Who said that polls are nonsense? Let's have a poll: are his polls nonsense or not, so that people stop calling nonsense what isn't nonsense.

:D :D :D
That made me smile.

Hermit

16 years ago

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It might sound a bit silly, but I'm being serious. We could, for example, hold a vote to determine whether or not Pasha should continue conducting polls. I'm confident that almost everyone would say they are needed, and only a few people, and I think I even know who they are, would say no. Yes, in my opinion, this is the best way to finally dispel all doubts about their usefulness, but in this case, no poll is even needed. (Such a poll would indeed be absurd.) There's nothing wrong with the fact that the team is interested in the opinions of the players. Is it really that difficult to click a few times with the mouse to vote?

In reply to Hermit

Oelm

16 years ago

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The situation with the "Britochka-Valenok" game showed that people in the Arbitration Committee can make judgments based on: - I lost a game to a weaker player, so he must have been cheating - ban him. - Someone is saying that player X is a cheater, so he definitely needs to be banned. - The presence of one (!) very questionable episode in the game. Therefore, I voted against.

Wicc

16 years ago

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The problem with Pasha's polls is that they seriously distort the space of real decisions. The reasons are simple: 1) The weight of individual people's votes in the real decision-making space is not the same. Therefore, if a linear sum (based on voting) shows one thing, and a weighted sum shows something else, it leads to a dissonance. Numwan complained about this not so long ago, wondering why the activities of the AK cause such a stir. Naturally, it will lead to this, if the most active and outspoken comrades regularly find themselves in opposition. It's roughly like now - almost all tournament organizers are in opposition. It is clear that pushing through such a decision, even with a formal advantage in votes, will be extremely difficult. Which Pasha has already realized. 2) Many polls go through 2 waves - first, people, without understanding, massively click on one option (usually populist). Then, as the discussion and opinions are expressed, people begin to understand the meaning of what is happening, and a reverse wave of votes begins, in favor of the reasonable option. What the sum of these waves will be depends on a mass of random factors. A recent example is the voting in this topic. Half an hour after the start, the score was 5-1, after a day it was 13-5, but after a few days of debate, the opposition finally caught up. Similarly, with Britva - at first, the votes mainly went to him, and then, after arguments were presented, the trend changed to the opposite, and someone even asked to recount his vote for another option. Therefore, the indicated 56% is, in essence, a figure pulled out of thin air. It could just as easily have been 20% or 80%. It depends on how the content resonates. Therefore, when making real decisions, the voting method "à la Pasha" is practically never used. Usually, people simply discuss it first. For a long time, tediously (if the question is complex), until a certain general trend emerges. And a poll, if it is done, is done at the end, to formally record what has already been decided.

In reply to Dirty_Player

Wlk777

16 years ago

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Dirty_Player

Do you remember your first ban? There was one person who stood up for you back then. It seems like that person's efforts weren't in vain. ;) In your quote, the key phrase is "in its time." People change!

You were last unbanned through a similar vote! Remember? And you're right about the decision being made within the organization. No one discussed this with the organizers in ICQ. Pasha has been told countless times that his polls are nonsense. Such a change needs to be implemented.

Why are you all so obsessed with my ban? Why are you comparing apples to oranges? The "Champion of the Month" award is given by 7 people after numerous discussions and based on very serious grounds. A ban, on the other hand, is accumulated through points, most of which are assigned subjectively by moderators, and it seems to depend heavily on their mood. If a moderator is in a bad mood, and they don't like the phrase "like a snitch," they'll give you 25 points. The fact that a lot of Vik's posts contain even more offensive phrases for which he doesn't get any points is irrelevant. Or if someone doesn't like something in the forums, they run to complain to the coordinators, and they don't have time to read the rules that LMs and forums are not subject to punishment. As a result, I have 2 regular bans for a week and 1 permanent ban for forum posts. So, understand the difference and stop bringing up these idiotic bans in every topic.

Added 3 minutes later

Hermit

Well, who said that the polls are nonsense? Let's do a poll: are his polls nonsense or not, so that we don't call something that isn't nonsense "nonsense" anymore.

Yeah. And first, let's do a poll to see if such a poll is needed :D

In reply to Wlk777

Лось

16 years ago

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What’s the point of a resource where there isn’t a vote on whether to conduct polls about polls from Pasha?! Ideally, we should also ask people if they even need this vote.

Hermit

16 years ago

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To Wicc
Even if someone rushes and later wants to change their vote, it's not a problem. Perhaps it's a bit early for everyone to start voting, but the discussion continues, new facts emerge, so in the end, the voting reflects the true opinion of the majority. As for the idea that different players' votes should have different weights, I don't think that's necessary. All votes should have equal weight. We have criteria based on the number of games played and time spent on the forum, and maybe something else I don't remember exactly right now, after which you can participate in the voting.

In reply to Hermit

Wicc

16 years ago

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Hermit

To Wicc
Even if a person hurries and then wants to change their vote — that's not a problem.

How is it not a problem... the HeroesWorld engine does not, as far as I understand, provide for such a possibility.

For instance, Fire asked to have his vote counted not for Razor, but against it — they ignored that, and the official 56% was mentioned here.

Well, maybe some people do start voting too early, but discussion continues afterwards, new facts emerge, so in the end the vote does show the true opinion of the majority.

Oh, come on... usually about half of those who voted do so on the first or second day, when the discussion is just heating up. Moreover, many of them don't even read the debate logs afterwards. What representativeness of opinions can we talk about in such a situation?

And as for the idea that votes from different players should have different weights, I don't think that's necessary. All votes have equal weight.

Don't get confused — it's not that they "should have different weight", but that they "do have different weight". That's just how life works. The voting system tries to model this life, but it does a poor job.

Hence such heated debates, where a group of people with a "weighty" voice (like our orgs) formally ends up in the numerical minority, but at the same time they understand that their opinion matters more for the life of the forum than the opinion of a crowd of tourists who dropped into the topic, clicked, and moved on without delving into the essence of the problem.

Plus, they understand that they can still push their opinion through despite a negative voting result — simply by pressure, throwing in snide remarks, creating tension, nervousness, etc. That is, so that those who will implement this decision do not feel much public support, but on the contrary, understand that they will have obstacles put in their way, that for any mistake or even the illusion of a mistake, they will be showered with abuse, etc.

Moreover, Pasha, despite regularly pretending to be thick-skulled, understands all this perfectly well. That's why he already said that 55-60% is clearly not the quorum to approve a decision. Although if those same percentages were achieved by votes from orgs and other active community members, the amendment would have been accepted with open arms. Because it is these people who provide the so-called "public support", that is, they are quite capable over time of convincing or persuading the dissatisfied 40-45%.

We have criteria regarding the number of games and time spent on the forum, maybe something else — I don't remember exactly — after which one can participate in votes.

That's a placebo, not criteria. Like a dress code for entering a parliament building.

In reply to Wlk777

Дубровин Павел

16 years ago

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Wlk777

Why are you all so upset about my ban? Why are you comparing apples to oranges? The "Champion of Might and Magic" award is given by 7 people after numerous discussions and based on very serious grounds. And a ban is accumulated based on points, most of which are given by moderators subjectively... so feel the difference and stop bringing up these idiotic bans in every topic.

Valentin, I brought up your example not to point out the reasons for receiving it, but to show that the players of Heroes of Might and Magic didn't ignore you, didn't abandon you, believed in you, and brought you back to the Resource. Although such a procedure didn't exist, and the Creator could have easily chosen not to do it.
For these same reasons, I don't think it's necessary to permanently ban a player who has received the "Champion of Might and Magic" award.

In reply to Дубровин Павел

Wlk777

16 years ago

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Dubrovin Pavel

Valentin, I didn't bring up your example to point out the reasons why you received it, but to show that the Vol players didn't ignore you, didn't abandon you, believed in you, and brought you back to the Resource. Even though there was no such procedure, and the Creator could have easily chosen not to do it.
For these same reasons, I don't think it's necessary to permanently ban a player who received the Champion of Champions title.

So, I took a break and calmed down (even though I haven't smoked in 33 years). Now, the question is - are you comparing ME and putting me in the same category as CHEATERS??? I really wanted to be rude, but out of respect for you, Pavel, I'll refrain. Please don't make such comparisons again; my nerves aren't made of steel.

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