"Weak demons"?? — Inferno

valery

16 years ago

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Ganseng

Ungraded dogs are just meat, because they get upgraded the very next day after the kennel is built.

Even ungraded ones can be used to break through defenses, and in general, to build Temptresses, you need 3+5=8 gold, and for dogs, 2+5=7 gold. That's a total of 15 gold, and we only start with 5. So, you have to find the remaining 10, and even if you find a mine early on, there are still problems with horses (that's another 10 gold). As a result, demons really lack this yellow resource, and it's not advisable to spend an extra 5 units on Temptresses early on.

And also, to really appreciate the benefits of Battle Dwarves (and many other things), you need to be ready for a serious game (preferably a tournament), and messing around with late-game strategies, where breaking through defenses doesn't matter, is completely different...

In reply to Саня Изи

antonag07

16 years ago

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Lordesat

Regarding the replay, I want to say that a lot of demons died.

This was how Valery commented on the replay and suggested a strategy from "smart" players, whose cities always start at levels 1-2 (therefore, they can only build Incubus in the beginning of the second week, and consequently, their number will not exceed 6 units), but, I suspect, something like level 6 (then there is already the possibility of building "Halls of Temptation"). But never mind the city – what do we see in the replay? And we see losses that are three times higher than the losses suffered by Valery. Although maybe I'm just bad at math? :D

Саня Изи

16 years ago

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Especially for antonag07, who loves mathematics and builds his city starting from level one, I am providing another map with 6 temptresses. The total number of demons lost is only 25. In theory, if the mages don’t split up, the losses will be even smaller.

P.S. I will no longer argue with fans of the “Build a Dungeon and Populate” strategy; everyone decides for themselves what is more effective in a given situation.

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sav

03-08-2010-2

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Смысла нет, но вы держитесь там. Удачи, здоровья, хорошего настроения!
И пока в кармане пачка милкиуэйев - значит все не так уж плохо на сегодняшний день

In reply to Саня Изи

antonag07

16 years ago

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So that everyone can independently assess the effectiveness of attacking with and without Battle Damage Prevention (BDP), I am posting my replay. And since we are talking about mathematics (and how can we do without it!), it is easy to calculate the cost of construction and recruitment in Lordesat's replay and in mine, where only demon towers have been built as improved structures.

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sav

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Саня Изи

16 years ago

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I don't know where you can find the cost of the buildings that **antonag07** built, but at least I didn't see anything new in this replay, except maybe that he deserves praise for the well-organized troop placement. And the plague strategy is also well thought out. However, what will he do if, say, there are not 30 mages, but 120 spearmen? He will simply get tired of killing them, and he won't have enough mana for resurrection. And with the Succubus, we can defeat anyone with almost no losses (those 25 Imps that I lost don't count; that wasn't my best setup, but you can do it with a tent and have no losses at all, and most importantly - without using the Town Portal).

Смысла нет, но вы держитесь там. Удачи, здоровья, хорошего настроения!
И пока в кармане пачка милкиуэйев - значит все не так уж плохо на сегодняшний день

In reply to Саня Изи

KillAndAction

16 years ago

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:D

Haven, the ability to stand up for one's point of view is a good quality, but it's clearly not the case here with Lordesat...

P.S. No offense intended.

Будьте осторожны со своими желаниями. Иногда они исполняются.
Сервер в Discord
Стрим на twitch.tv
Стрим на GG

ЛИДЕР Клана"ХРАНИТЕЛИ НЕБЕСНЫХ ВРАТ" Рейтинг: Латник
Вступление в клан "Хранители небесных врат"

Саня Изи

16 years ago

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What’s the reason for this? I will defend my position to the very end.

Смысла нет, но вы держитесь там. Удачи, здоровья, хорошего настроения!
И пока в кармане пачка милкиуэйев - значит все не так уж плохо на сегодняшний день

In reply to Саня Изи

antonag07

16 years ago

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Lordesat

I don't know where you can find the cost of the buildings that antonag07 built.

For example, in the manual.

Lordesat

But at least I didn't see anything new in this replay, except maybe I should praise him for the well-organized troop placement.

No need for applause :smile12:

Lordesat

Well, the plague idea is also pretty good.

Yeah, it's a secret development that no one knew about until now :D

Lordesat

However, what will he do if, say, there are not 30 mages, but 120 pikemen? He won't just waste time killing them, and he won't have enough mana for resurrection.

What are pikemen? Militia or... fallen angels? - Express your thought more precisely (preferably with correct Russian spelling).

Lordesat

And with the succubi, we can defeat anyone with almost no losses (the 25 imps I lost can be ignored, it wasn't my best setup, but you can also win with a tent and absolutely no losses, and most importantly - without using the Book of Destruction).

25 imps can be ignored - especially if you have 2-2 such battles - there will really be no one left to count. Also, specify the difficulty level of the game - "hero", "veteran", or...? This is important for evaluating building capabilities ;)

Саня Изи

16 years ago

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Anton, don't pretend you don't understand who I'm talking about. And besides, 25 Imps in exchange for a Black Dragon, which is a unit with limited potential, I think it's a sacrifice worth making. Moreover, such large groups of mages are rarely used in the late game. So, the difference of 13 Imps in the late game doesn't matter much. Furthermore, I win many other battles with Succubi without any losses and without using a Black Dragon, so I think the losses are justified.

Смысла нет, но вы держитесь там. Удачи, здоровья, хорошего настроения!
И пока в кармане пачка милкиуэйев - значит все не так уж плохо на сегодняшний день

Ereb

16 years ago

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I see a serious debate going on here; but after watching both replays, I have to say that the Blood Dragon performance, especially with Plague, was truly impressive.
Lordesat, sometimes demons actually need protection to secure a Blood Dragon Pit or a Stone Skin Golem (very useful skills), and with the addition of machines and mobs, they are easier to defeat.
The losses are certainly significant, but what are they based on? That is, what did you capture? If it was sulfur or mercury, then I would definitely agree that the losses are justified. If not, then I don't understand... are you trying to prove that you can manage without a Blood Dragon Pit?

За кланы! За кровь!

Саня Изи

16 years ago

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Ereb, you understand that we're talking about the late game, where every skill point counts, and losses from mobs, like 13 Imps, aren't taken into account. Although protection is a good thing for demons, it's not rational to take a build focused on that because of mobs. Then we lose Stone Skin, Fire Vengeance, and many other things. Machines are also not safe to take in the late game. So, the only thing we can rely on is Temptresses + Darkness.

Смысла нет, но вы держитесь там. Удачи, здоровья, хорошего настроения!
И пока в кармане пачка милкиуэйев - значит все не так уж плохо на сегодняшний день

Ereb

16 years ago

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Then, if there's a mentor on the map, there's no need for dialogue... but if there isn't one, I agree with you – you're right))).

За кланы! За кровь!

In reply to Ereb

KillAndAction

16 years ago

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:smile35:

Wow, what a persistent person!

Temptresses + Darkness is not the only path to victory, and it's far from the most reliable (sometimes it's not reliable at all). Darkness is still somewhat acceptable, but Temptresses are only good for a maximum of 4 rounds. The Temptation effect passes, the Temptresses are killed before or after the Temptation, and that's it. Or, the Temptation might not even help: the tempted unit might act too late, or the spell effect might occur before the tempted unit can do anything. And then, at that moment, the Temptresses are defenseless, and it's not a given that they will even manage to tempt anyone. And also (but keep it quiet!), Temptation can be removed.

Будьте осторожны со своими желаниями. Иногда они исполняются.
Сервер в Discord
Стрим на twitch.tv
Стрим на GG

ЛИДЕР Клана"ХРАНИТЕЛИ НЕБЕСНЫХ ВРАТ" Рейтинг: Латник
Вступление в клан "Хранители небесных врат"

Ereb

16 years ago

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So, I came to the conclusion that if we take Marbas, we can either get Blood Dragon Pup or Stone Skin right away, and we can also get Temptresses... there are fewer problems now))) as well as sulfur, which we will spend on succubi.

За кланы! За кровь!

Саня Изи

16 years ago

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I don't know how much longer I can keep proving something to someone here, but I think I already wrote somewhere that I have nothing against BDP, and if someone wants to use it, go ahead. I will use Succubi because I like it, and if someone is against it, I don't care. So, Killandaction, stop with your posts about my tactics; you should come up with something new instead of just agreeing with Antonag07 and others.

Added 3 minutes later

KillAndAction

:smile35:

Succubi are only good for a maximum of 4 rounds.

In that time, you can defeat anyone, even Demons. And in general, it seems you just don't know how to fight with them, that's why you're writing such nonsense. I use them to clear maps perfectly, without losses, and to fight strong factions. I already posted somewhere a replay where I easily defeated Haven, and in that game, I played the entire map using only Succubi, Dark Knights, and Archers. And I didn't use any Machines.

Смысла нет, но вы держитесь там. Удачи, здоровья, хорошего настроения!
И пока в кармане пачка милкиуэйев - значит все не так уж плохо на сегодняшний день

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