Which faction poses the greatest challenge for the Dwarves? — Fortress

Ereb

16 years ago

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To be honest, I haven't been here in a while, and I forgot to change it – I was just lazy. I'll change it to a Gnome now.
And by the way, aren't the races you listed also among the strongest? Training + vampirism or antimagic, I think there are three leaders... although what about Orcs?
I've just figured out that you're a pretty good player, and better than me.
Tell me, as an experienced player, how do Orcs compare to Necromancers, Gnomes, and Humans? But please, write more; I want to give a good talking-to to one guy who excessively praises his Orcs, it's really annoying:smile18:... I'll be glad to read your opinion on all this)))) And I'll increase your BD (Battle Rating) as a sign of reconciliation when you answer))))

Ereb

16 years ago

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Just in case, this topic is about Dwarves!

In reply to Ereb

Саня Изи

16 years ago

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Ereb

Just so you know, this topic is about dwarves!

Sorry, we got completely off-topic here. By the way, did you watch my replay?

valery

16 years ago

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[edited, off-topic in the message]
And regarding the topic. Dwarves are a slow and cumbersome race, and it's quite difficult for them to play against fast rushers. Usually, the problem isn't the race itself, but the heroes and the map's features (which is why I don't really like standard maps; the balance is better on templates).

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valery

16 years ago

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Lordesat

And where did you make a name for yourself, I wonder?

Duel Tournament "Treasures of the Sands" 1st place:smile49:. And also a few minor ones: "Fate of the Silver Cities" 5th place, "Assassin's Target" 1/8 finals (the last one on the league, the first 2 on HeroesWorld).

Lordesat

And anti-magic on the first turn is never nonsense; nonsense is haste.

The result tells a slightly different story.

Lordesat

To be honest, you were just playing against yourself and decided that you're of course smarter than everyone else.

You only just figured that out now (the word "tested" has exactly that meaning).

Lordesat

No wonder your favorite Haven won.

But Haven is truly strong when it gets favorable draws.

Lordesat

And you obviously decided to challenge me?

As one good person said, "The game should bring enjoyment."

Mish-gan

16 years ago

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I see you've completely forgotten about the topic! Of course, "the game should be enjoyable," and I always say that too. Regarding your argument, I can say that in this confrontation, many things depend on nuances – skill, artifacts, neutral creatures encountered while exploring the map, skill acquisition, and unit placement on the battle scale in the final battle. But overall, both sides have a chance to win! If you want to settle things, I can provide a tournament map specifically designed to determine the strongest race in the game; that's where everything will fall into place! Alright, enough with the storytelling.
Now, back to the topic. Since I mainly specialize in Dwarves, I can say that the Orc is the most challenging opponent. I believe he has a better chance of defeating the Dwarf than any other race. Let's discuss that instead.

Саня Изи

16 years ago

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Well, if we exclude the dark factions, the probability is about 90 percent.

valery

16 years ago

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Are you referring to rushing the Dwarf? If so, I agree that easily obtainable machines + enchantments do the trick. If it's a late-game scenario, things don't look so good for the Orc. The Dwarf will have Inga (as the second hero), and with her, all the runes. And it's not a given that the Orc will guess correctly with the Silencer (he might end up with a Chaos Archmage and a Trickster).

In reply to valery

Саня Изи

16 years ago

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valery

If it's a late game, then things don't look very good for the Orc. The Dwarf will have Inga (as a second hero), and with her, all the runes. And it's not a given that the Orc will guess with the Silencer (it might be Chaos Arcanum and a Trickster).

I've already tried playing as a Dwarf against an Orc. Orcs can have such magic immunity, and even take Ice Shield, which no Arcanum can help against. So, we definitely go for Sanctuary and take Anti-Chaos and Luck, then you won't be able to break through the Orc, whether with Light or Chaos. Besides, the Orc absorbs a lot of damage, and physical attacks are almost useless.

valery

16 years ago

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The Ice Shield should bring good luck. And if you take Anti-Chaos, then, according to Murphy's Law, the Dwarf will end up on the Light side :( To take a Stronghold, you need to be sure that you won't be killed before you can develop it (depends on the map), as you take machines and lose your influence. In general, taking a Stronghold without a mentor is a risky business: they might offer a Ballista or a Tent when your skills are already maxed out, and that's goodbye to the Stronghold.
Of course, a lot depends on the random events. Only Immovability is so unpredictable.

Саня Изи

16 years ago

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I think you definitely need to level up the Chaos Archer in Castle. Why would he need Retribution? But if you don't level up the Chaos Archer, you'll have a hard time. I think a universal option against a Dwarf is Chaos Archer, Chaos Negation, and Light Negation. What do you think?

valery

16 years ago

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Retribution deals +25% damage (at 5 morale). It's perfect for Orcs.
Furthermore, without logistics, an Orc will usually be 3-4 levels behind (there is, of course, a mentor, but not always).
In general, I believe that discussing racial matchups can only be done based on the map (at least because a Dwarf might arrive with Armageddon before you level up anti-chaos, and an Orc might arrive in weeks 2-3 with machines).

In reply to valery

Саня Изи

16 years ago

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valery

Retribution deals +25% damage (with 5 morale). It's perfect for Orcs.
Also, without Logistics, Orcs will typically be 3-4 levels behind (there is a Mentor, of course, but not always).
In general, I believe that we can only talk about racial matchups based on the map (at least because a Dwarf can arrive with Armageddon before you manage to research Anti-Chaos, and an Orc can arrive in the 2nd or 3rd week with War Machines).

But your Orcs will die under attacks like flies. Without Chain Lightning, you can't count on winning in the late game. And 25% damage looks good only with Paladins; with Orcs, it's noticeable, but not by much.
Since when does Logistics affect level in the late game? If you're talking about a rush, that's a completely different story; you don't need Chain Lightning, and you can take Logistics. But in the late game, it's useless for Orcs to take Logistics. And you can still manage to research Anti-Chaos, at least on the same Outlands. If you play without Chain Lightning and Anti-Chaos, and even take Logistics, Orcs have no chance of winning in the late game.
However, here's a universal method for fighting against Light and Chaos: take Ice Shield, Luck, Barbarian Luck, and as many artifacts as possible that increase Luck and Magic Resistance. Then the wolves are fed, and the sheep are safe.

Mish-gan

16 years ago

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I think that if we're talking about rushing, dwarves will find it quite difficult to fend off, for example, Hagesh or Tilsek in the 2nd-3rd week; maybe it's possible in a Castle with Ingvar or Karli, but it's doubtful!
Now, if we're talking about the late game, then I would (depending on the map and the ability to snag darkness spells—Berserk or Subjugation—in a neutral castle, Dragon Utopia, or magic shops, plus a mentor) hunt for darkness against an orc (it's 2%, but still, from experience I know it's possible), then play defensively (with Readiness and the Intangibility rune)—in 70-80% of cases this is a victory, even if the orc has a leveled-up СА (verified). It's another matter playing on a map that is poorer in mentors, Dragon Utopia, and shops; here much will depend on the chance of getting the necessary runes (mainly Battle Fury and Resurrection) as well as successful leveling—here I think the chances for orcs and dwarves are equal, 50-50. But still, in any late game scenario, I will never take Chaos; instead, I'll take (in order of importance)—darkness, light, summoning.
But again, I stand by my opinion that the orc is the most dangerous opponent for a dwarf in the late game, as only he has a 50% chance against a dwarf on more maps; other races have less than 40%.

In reply to Саня Изи

valery

16 years ago

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Lordesat

But your Orcs will die under attack like flies. Without Spell Power, you can't count on winning in the late game. And 25% damage looks good only with Paladins, but with Orcs, it's noticeable, but not by much.

With Spell Power, Orcs also won't last long, because with the Rune of Battle Fury, Rage doesn't last long.

Lordesat

Since when does Logistics affect the level in the late game? If you're talking about a rush, that's a completely different story; you don't need Spell Power there, and you can take Logistics. But in the late game, taking Logistics for an Orc is useless. And you can still manage to upgrade Anti-Chaos, at least in the same Outlands. If you play without Spell Power and Anti-Chaos, and even take Logistics, then Orcs have no chance of winning in the late game.

Since the very beginning. With Logistics, we kill more neutrals and gather more resources.

Lordesat

Although, here's a universal method for fighting against Light and Chaos: take Ice Shield, Luck, Barbarian Luck, and as many artifacts as possible for Luck and Magic Resistance. And the wolves are fed, and the sheep are safe.

And what does your method have to do with Light? (except perhaps for Divine Retribution). And even so, you won't achieve more than 40% deviation.