Leaving Heroes of Might and Magic in protest of Alex’s removal from the Facebook group. — Tournament History

BESHA

4/4/2010 1:04 PM UTC

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Easter in 1994

Rusetskaya Tatiana, Minsk

Well, I'll add my two cents. I'm not against anyone, nor am I on anyone's side. I'm just stating what I think. Let's go through it step by step. Initially, the trouble started with Alex. Petrovich misunderstood something and voiced it. Let everyone put themselves in his shoes. This is not snitching; it's a normal action for the common good because such things shouldn't be ignored. Then, Tuzkorol started the analysis, which is also a normal thing. They started connecting the dots.
The result was a mess. I don't know if Cobra was involved or not. I think he was, although I'm not 100% sure. But I really want to believe it. However, in such a situation, Cobra is a very competent component in terms of strategic slaughter. This cannot be denied. So, the situation escalated. Then, Tuzkorol delivered the verdict:
stupidity. I would only understand two verdicts here: 1 - Alex was involved in the situation and manipulated Cobra to make a mistake, or if he was so curious, he should have at least disconnected Mikola and divided the spoils. 2. You are a cheater and should accept the consequences. But in the end, they came up with some nonsensical verdict. It's like I told my neighbor to go to hell, and I got fired from my job. Isn't that absurd? Then, Forest took over and acted strictly on principle.
At first, it looked like support, but in the end, it turned out like a wife packing her things and going to live with her mother. Then came the principle of brotherhood, and our guys started rallying. Lawyers showed up. But what always annoyed me was that
someone would say, "I'm leaving, and you'll be left in the mess." And also, those who loudly announce their departure don't really want to leave. This has been observed, tested, and proven. And it's also unclear where to go and from where. It's like a kindergarten. Then, Vova started writing. Some (censored) theorems. For brotherhood, plus, and for being wooden, minus.
I'll skip the rest – I don't understand it. He should be awarded a medal with the inscription (censored). I used to have a better opinion of Van. Dirty seems to be okay.
The various infantry units and those who are always stirring up trouble are going to Bay for a showdown.

Well, I can't boast about my intelligence, adequacy, or well-thought-out rationalism, but I think it's time to take a step towards each other. In my opinion, the situation is 51% in favor of Alex, and 49% against. I have my reasons for this. Alex needs to be understood. He may be rude (censored), just like me, but he's a good person. It's just that not everyone can understand that.

So, that's it. Alex should be brought back to FB2. This situation should be treated as an exception. And everyone should take off their crowns. Let reason and humanity come to us. We can play the game of pride on a different platform.

Peace to everyone, and may the crap be with you! :smile15:

In reply to Pit for LM

Catch

4/4/2010 1:15 PM UTC

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Pit for LM

For the entire game, from start to finish, the person who posts the result is responsible.

And what does the whole tournament have to do with it?

In reply to Pit for LM

Psyche_7

4/4/2010 1:15 PM UTC

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I sympathize with AK. They ended up in a difficult situation.
I'll just make a small observation: the more detailed and specific the rules, the more likely they are to be broken. Rules are needed for beginners; it's a form of education. For experienced players, and especially for people for whom Heroes is not the peak of their achievements but just one way of self-expression, no rules are needed. Just as you don't need to constantly remind yourself not to swear, if you have the appropriate upbringing, etc.
Unfortunately, people have become too accustomed to living "according to the rules," guided by them rather than understanding the essence.
WOWA was right, but it's a voice crying in the wilderness.

P.S. Thank you to the forum and the opponents.

In reply to Pit for LM

wowa

4/4/2010 1:42 PM UTC

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Pit for LM

If we acknowledge that the situation is normal, then after that, no case of cheating, saving issues, or any other form of cheating can be punished. It will be enough to find a friend/relative who says: "The player went to the toilet, so I played for him."
The person who posts the result is responsible for the game from start to finish.

Dear sir, understand this: cheating is done quietly, so as not to get caught!

If anyone was caught, it was complete losers and zeroes, both in the game and in their minds – do you think Alex is like that?

My opinion: this is a misunderstanding, and an ambiguous one at that.
Measures are taken according to the degree of harm caused – in this case, there is no harm.
The situation is absolutely equivalent to the following: in a Moscow tournament, I opened the save file of a game between Eddie and Preds.
The goal is to test some of my assumptions.
This game was then finished a week later.
Let's record this as a loss for Eddie, because he won there, or even better, let's annul his Moscow tournament – specifically for this :D :D

But was Eddie involved?
The answer is no, he wasn't, just like Alex! What should he do – encrypt the saves, or lock him in a room? Cobra is an adult, and he trusted him :) Did Cobra do anything illegal, being not a player? In my opinion, NO! First, prove that he then directed Alex, and then go after him......

But I think the situation is different here – some people simply suspect Alex – as if Cobra is just an excuse.
But I can't imagine anything more stupid than this position, sorry

"...the personal strengths and weaknesses of a leader are no true indication of the merits of his cause"

(с) Roger Zelazny

Pit for LM

4/4/2010 1:52 PM UTC

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I'm honestly in shock that such a fuss was made out of an ordinary situation. Special applause to the comrades from AK and Mr. Sorge, I didn't expect such a dirty trick from you.. You're looking in the wrong place, folks, start with yourselves!
I'll describe how it really happened.
That day I was near Player1 and decided to drop by his place. But after arriving, I almost immediately ran into an endless battle (Player1 has a glitchy computer and it quite often freezes for an hour or two..) Player1 was getting ready to go to the theater while his computer was hanging, and I was sitting across from him even then, because the computer is in the kitchen next to the TV. After that, when the computer stopped freezing, Player1 and Player2 agreed that it didn't matter whether Player1 had a save or not, since Player2 already had an autosave. Player1 went off to warm up his voice and get ready for the theater, suggesting that I finish the trivial battle against air and make a save. After finishing the battle, I saw a consulate below and decided to check it out, but the keyboard glitched, and somehow I automatically entered a battle (with the consulate), it was supposedly behind a mountain and you couldn't right-click to check how many griffins there were (again, the fabulous accusations of throwing Player1 under the bus — he wouldn't do something like that even when drunk). A save was no longer needed in that situation, and in a fit of curiosity, I decided to look at the situation further, see what was in store for Player1, and I ran around the map a bit. That's it.
Note that I didn't look at what the opponent had, and even if I had, Player1 and I don't usually tell each other about it — simply because it's not interesting to play afterwards. Victory is secondary; the main thing is the action itself.
I completely don't understand what the crime is — that I looked at a comrade's save (not even at the opponent's, mind you!). Yes, I'm convinced that half of those present cheat in one way or another, but I absolutely don't care about that, simply because I know I play stronger.
Just in case, my name is Artyom, 27 years old, married, have a child, Daniil, 2.5 years old. I have a higher education in economics with a degree in 0611 "Organization Management." Currently, I am the director of a trading company. Contracts have been signed with large oil organizations. I have 10 people under my command. I am the sole owner.
PS. If anyone didn't understand, the Guest is me.

We have two versions of the Guest's testimony, completely contradicting each other. Which one should KobRa believe?
KobRa knew that the case was with AK. Logically, if he set up Alex, then he should have been the one to contact AK and explain the situation. Only he could have justified Alex. But

KobRa ?(11:33):
what does that have to do with me? there's Alex — deal with him
KobRa ?(11:50):
ban him, I've been saying for a long time that he's a cheater!

Now:

I'm honestly in shock that such a fuss was made out of an ordinary situation.

An ordinary situation? None of the AK members have ever seen anything like this before. Examples, please, of such "ordinary" situations.

I was sitting across from him even then, because the computer is in the kitchen next to the TV
agreed that it didn't matter whether Player1 had a save or not

Where does that information come from? If KobRa didn't see (while sitting across), what was agreed upon? There was no such agreement...

Player1 went off to warm up his voice and get ready for the theater, suggesting that I finish the trivial battle against air and make a save.

Why couldn't Player1 finish the trivial battle and save himself? It's a 30-second job. And he needed to leave almost an hour later.

Pit ?(14:07):
and what time did you leave?
AlexTheGreat ?(14:07):
well, around 18-00+
don't remember exactly
18-20
or 30

Earlier it was

KobRa ?(12:08):
getting dressed, eating I think

but now that doesn't fit, because the process of "eating" most likely should have taken place in the kitchen. In that case, it's clearly not okay to open the save.

After finishing the battle, I saw a consulate below and decided to check it out

But why? Alex told you to finish the battle and save.

Earlier it was:

Pit ?(12:08):
and did you conduct the battles?
KobRa ?(12:09):
no, Alex did.
set up Quick Battle, I think

A save was no longer needed in that situation, and in a fit of curiosity, I decided to look at the situation further, see what was in store for Player1, and I ran around the map a bit. That's it.

THAT'S IT. If that's THAT'S IT, then it's logical to assume that the second loading of the save half an hour later was done by Alex, because

Pit ?(14:09):
and couldn't anyone else from the household have watched the game afterwards?
AlexTheGreat ?(14:09):
no, no one was home
what does the household have to do with it

Now, logically, another bout of memory improvement should follow. KobRa will remember that about half an hour later, curiosity got the better of him again. And we'll start adjusting his memories to fit the situation.
Are you kidding me or what?

When we first started dealing with this case, it was completely impossible to understand what actually happened. Actually, little has changed.

For example, about when KobRa could have left Alex's place:

Forrest (20:01:53 11/02/2010)
last thing. I immediately asked kobRa did you go to the theater with Alex yesterday he said "yes"

Pit ?(13:47):
and when did KobRa come to you?
AlexTheGreat ?(13:47):
well, he arrived during the day... for a couple of hours
how should I remember...
<swear word>
Pit ?(13:47):
to watch you play?
AlexTheGreat ?(13:48):
not only that
we needed to sort out some issues
we live nearby...
then we left together for different business...

Pit ?(12:17):
and did you leave together?
KobRa ?(12:40):
no, he just saw me off, we were going in different directions

Three different versions. Which one shall we go with?

Anyway, there's no point in investigating anymore.
We had no right to conceal or hush up the situation.
Now to pour mud on AK, on HeroesWorld, on individual players, when neither Alex nor KobRa wanted to explain anything... Well, I just don't know what to say...
So, whose fault is it?

=Stinger=

4/4/2010 1:54 PM UTC

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I will also confess to the AK. I admit that I cheated repeatedly before Mikogo appeared. Previously, people who were interested in what was happening in the game simply asked to send the save file of the current game via e-mail. So I sent it. For this, I definitely deserve disqualification from all tournaments and exile to Siberia.

In reply to =Stinger=

Catch

4/4/2010 2:11 PM UTC

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=Stinger=

and I'll be exiled to Siberia for it.

Come visit, it's not that bad here :)

Added 1 minute ago

Pit for LM

Three different versions. Which one should we go with?

If you ask all the forum members what they were doing on a Thursday evening a month ago, 90% will get confused and not remember different details.

wowa

4/4/2010 2:27 PM UTC

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ehhhhh, if only we had investigators here
trained in the art of suspicion, they only suspect when there's a reason
and discrepancies in witness testimony were never considered Dragon Fly Hive, only leads for further operational work
yet any case was heavily unraveled through motives -- there are none here: IMHO but a firm one
the fact that Zmey wrote about Alex "he's a cheater, ban him" -- isn't it obvious sarcasm? I personally caught it right away

and discrepancies in testimony are not grounds for a verdict even in court, an accusation was never built on that -- on the contrary, multiple witnesses are brought forth in the name of truth
I cannot be a witness, but I will give testimony: even without playing like Alex, after launching Miсago before my own cheating, I at least checked if she was turned off
and no other way -- cheaters fear getting caught above all else
this was not done
conclusions -- either Alex cheated demonstratively, or he is not in his right mind, or it's not him

=====
why am I writing this?
people who play Heroes seem to be not stupid
those who play well are far from stupid
but for not-stupid people to make unequivocal conclusions about life situations, which can have the most varied interpretations, is simply unacceptable
this too is a kind of strategy
strategy involves working through options and choosing the most optimal one
in this case, optimality lies not in personal ambitions, but in the heroic cause
and such a turn of events, IMHO, harms the heroic cause
I'm sure that AK also advocates for the heroic cause and strives for it
so maybe it's better to measure seven times, rather than give in to emotions and the wildness of a situation that is actually comical, huh? :)

"...the personal strengths and weaknesses of a leader are no true indication of the merits of his cause"

(с) Roger Zelazny

In reply to Catch

Wlk777

4/4/2010 2:27 PM UTC

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Catch

If you ask all forum members what they were doing on a Thursday evening a month ago, 90% will get their stories mixed up and not remember various details.

Absolutely logical. However, after two days, people don't remember anything, but after two months, they suddenly have a clear and sudden recollection. Isn't that strange? :confused:

Всем удачи ! И Морали !

In reply to Wlk777

wowa

4/4/2010 2:31 PM UTC

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Wlk777

That's perfectly logical. But after two days, people don't remember anything, and after two months, they suddenly have a sharp and unexpected memory. Isn't that strange? :confused:

If you don't strain your brain, it won't work.
The situation seemed not worth the effort.
But when it became clear that they were serious, they got tense and remembered.
Everything is quite logical.

IF THEY WERE CHEATING, THEY WOULD HAVE REMEMBERED IMMEDIATELY!!! ;)

"...the personal strengths and weaknesses of a leader are no true indication of the merits of his cause"

(с) Roger Zelazny

In reply to =Stinger=

Dirty_Player

4/4/2010 2:35 PM UTC

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Pit for LM

Regarding the format. We've discussed a lot how to convey the decision to the forum. I don't like this format either.
There was a proposal to simply post the AC decision without explanations, and have moderators delete all comments on HeroesWorld. Is that better? Suggest alternatives; if there's a good proposal, we will gladly change the rules and act accordingly.

Petya, sorry, but there's one thing I can't understand. Since you've already started this clown show with a discussion, why does Pasha's post with a verdict appear in the middle of the debate? :confused:

Redwhait

4/4/2010 3:24 PM UTC

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Pete, you wouldn't make a good investigator ;)
Let's solve this crime (cheating) :)

The object is
strangely enough, the rule of fair play :)

The objective side is characterized by an action — he asked Cobra to save the game.
By construction, the composition is material, completed from the moment of cheating.

And here's the most interesting part :)

The subjective side

1 Guilt — Negligent due to carelessness, since Alex did not realize that Cobra could cheat, and moreover did not foresee the consequences :)

2 In any crime, even cheating, there must be a motive!
I did not find a motive here on Alex's part.
Surely he wouldn't cheat himself when Mikogo is on, in which case he could be declared insane :)
The subject of the crime is a physically Sane person :)

The Dragon Fly Hive are only circumstantial — the video recording shows cheating, but not by Alex! This is proven by the ICQ logs and Alex's sanity.
Conclusion: Alex, under the legislation of the Russian Federation, must be acquitted :)
And Cobra simply cannot be guilty, since the rules say nothing about map reveal by non-players of the match....

That's all for now, if new Dragon Fly Hive become known within 5 years, please speak up :)
And try to prove the opposite ;)
And special thanks to Piterius for giving me something to think about on this interesting situation :)

General ZeT

4/4/2010 3:33 PM UTC

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A competitor of the AC was removed from FB 2. (AC members are also participants)

I don't see the point in continuing to play and communicate on HW after that.
Peace to all (c)

And especially the title

Leaving HW in protest of Alex's removal from FB 2

Friends, I don't know you, and there's nothing personal here, but in my worldview, cultured people do all this beautifully and without unnecessary fuss. The main thing is not to stumble on the way out. I don't think that the author of the topic and others like him, in the good sense of this wonderful phrase, will simply stop visiting the forum. They will continue to observe the circus and add fuel to their "creation" until this, like all similar circuses, leads to a dead end after several repetitions of everything that has already been said, and everyone remains with their own opinion. It's silly...
With respect.

:smile17:

In reply to Pit for LM

Wicc

4/4/2010 4:21 PM UTC

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Man... Pete's post is a wild ride from start to finish :). I see why politicians have speechwriters; at least they maintain a coherence of thought.

So:

Disqualification from the tournament for violation of game rules

Link to the specific rule, please. In the rules, only the players themselves are forbidden from opening saves. Not a word about third parties. Moreover, the tradition of sending saves to other players for review has existed for many years, and if that's considered a violation, then at least 60-70% of the players from Bay should be banned. I've done it many times myself, and I've even discussed the game with those people more than once. There were a few situations where hints slipped into the interlocutor's speech, which made me very angry, and I even ignored Expert in ICQ until the end of the game.

If amendments are to be made to the rules, it should be noted that the tightening of laws has no retroactive effect.

disrespect toward the opponent

What disrespect? Forgot to save? Hehe :). A couple of sharp epithets in ICQ and the incident is settled.

unacceptable behavior of a fan.

A slap on the wrist.

Why not a Black Mark? Any judge could have given a Black Mark for this and been right. The personality and authority of Alex and Cobra were taken into account. Practically anyone else would have received a Black Mark.

Do I understand correctly that this phrase can be interpreted as: "We believe Alex cheated, but we don't have the guts to ban him?"

And another question—is this your understanding of the reasons or the official opinion of those AC members who voted against?

An example from real life.
A competition medalist is caught doping. Result annulled and disqualification for a certain period.
Regardless of how the doping entered the athlete's body: whether they bought headache pills at a pharmacy, the coach gave them vitamins, a doctor gave them cough syrup, or competitors slipped something into the compote during dinner. There is a test result, which means the athlete is responsible for it.

Unfortunately, you can't compare the two, because doping control has an approved sampling procedure and a methodology for detecting doping, adherence to which and the results of which are part of the competition rules.

For example, two samples are taken immediately, so that if the first is positive, the second can be checked more thoroughly. In the end, the probability of error is extremely low. And, by the way, a violation of the sampling protocol is considered an argument in defense of the athlete.

In this case, however, there is no procedure, no physical evidence, nothing at all. Only hints and guesses. It's roughly as if an athlete mentioned something about doping in a post-match interview, then hesitated, and some passerby said they saw the athlete injecting something before the start. That's a reason to study the sample more closely, but if the analysis yields no results, then any attempt to impose sanctions based on this would first be laughed at and then successfully challenged in court.

From this comes a logical question—did the AC consider the saves of this game that followed the violation? If so, were there signs in them that the player possessed more information than would be evident from the scouted territory?

If we acknowledge this situation as normal, then after that, no case of leaking, failure to save, or cheating can be punished at all. It will be enough to find a friend/relative who says: "The player stepped out to the toilet, so I played for him."

Ask lawyers or just rational people how laws are created. Usually, it happens like this—first, an incident occurs that does not contradict the laws, but it's clear that it shouldn't be this way.

After that, a corresponding law is passed, which, naturally, does not apply to the time preceding its adoption. Simply because at the moment of the incident, such actions did not contradict the law.

I personally am accused of eliminating a competitor.

I think the logic here is simple—if a person writes such texts, they are either stupid or biased. You haven't been noted for the former, so the latter remains.

However, the reasons for bias can be anything, not necessarily a desire to eliminate a competitor. The only important thing is that you have some personal interest in this specific outcome. And that's quite hard to hide; it shines through quite strongly.

The same applies to Pasha Dubrovin. It was already evident from the starting protocol that he had formed his official opinion before all the arguments were laid on the table. This means he really wanted it.

Plus, you both voted for a Black Mark, which is hard to explain by anything other than initial bias. Tell me—do you really believe that Alex cheated blatantly and then brought in Cobra to clear his name?

P.S. When Vitalik's case was being handled, a public opinion poll was conducted, and it reflected the players' opinions very well—not a single vote against, more than half for, and a few abstentions. I'm curious—why was there no public opinion poll this time? Could it be because it's clear the result would likely be the opposite?

In reply to Wicc

Oelm

4/4/2010 4:41 PM UTC

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Yura, there is no bias here. The decision had to be made, and it was. Although, as I understand it, the issue of unfair play should have been resolved through a general vote. Why did the Arbitration Committee take it upon itself to make this decision?

Земля нуля.
Все в ней нулево и кукольно.