Round table — Online Tournaments

Van

16 years ago

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It is not prohibited; rather, it is permitted for use only after the guards have been defeated. We are not talking about a prohibition, but about not using it without defeating the guards.

Captain

16 years ago

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Recently, I came across a question... they're asking to play with an 8-minute timer...
Before, everyone played with a 4-minute timer... and that was enough for everyone, except in some cases where more time was needed. The main argument was that a lot of time was needed to transfer troops along the chains.
Now, with the introduction of the lighter, troop exchange takes only a second... but we still play with a 6-minute timer...

So, in this regard, the question is - to those who still need 6 minutes or more. How can you justify this?

FireToSky

16 years ago

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I don't know, the more I play, the more time it takes. The chains have become better. The templates have become larger. Plus, saving moves takes a lot of time for thinking, even a lighter doesn't help. 8 minutes is normal... In Warlord/Towns, less time is required, at least from the brilliant invention - splitting the units!

In reply to FireToSky

SAG

16 years ago

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FireToSky

I don't know, the more I play, the more time it takes.

+1 :) Same here. The more you know the game, the greater the risk you take. Before, I would go for strong defenses. But without precise calculations, you can easily get into trouble, and that's where the extra time comes in.

Also, it's more comfortable to play with a time buffer. You don't necessarily have to choose the full time limit; it's just more enjoyable not to feel like you're on pins and needles with only a few seconds left on your turn... I often play without a time limit, and the turns feel like they're on a normal 6-minute timer. After the timed matches in the Tournament Edition, the time limits in Soda really annoy me.

In reply to SAG

Alessandro

16 years ago

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SAG

After the turn timer in Heroes, the SOD (Sudden Death) time limits are quite annoying.

I agree. It's more convenient, even when the time runs out during battles. Sometimes, for example, you need to spend a long time observing, using the "view land/air" spell, and 4 minutes in SOD might not be enough. In Heroes, if you make one turn quickly, the remaining time carries over to the next turn, which is very convenient.
Here are two examples in favor of a quick time limit.
1) Dreamcatcher, while working at the university, once gathered all his friends for a Heroes tournament, around 2002. He even created somewhat playable random maps. They played Heroes without dungeons. I agreed with everyone to play with a 2-minute limit, and only one player asked for 4 minutes. But 2 players from our group either forgot or didn't want to set a limit and played with no limit. One player couldn't stand it when his opponent took 30 minutes per turn. In the end, it turned out that the opponent was looking for the Grail. :)
2) January 2010. Siberian qualifier. Mike was playing against Dirty Player. Heroes Lite 1800+300. After 8 hours (or 243 turns) of the game, Dirty Player said: "If we were playing with no limit, we would be in the 2nd week right now."

Van

16 years ago

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I think 6 minutes is a good time limit; that's the whole point – to balance on the edge, like in blitz chess. If you slow down too much, you'll end up in time trouble.

In reply to Alessandro

Wlk777

16 years ago

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Alessandro

I agree. It's more convenient, even when time is running out during battles.

I still don't understand the idea of time limits in battles. Let's say I'm in a difficult battle, carefully planning my moves, etc. (and in my case, almost every turn is a difficult one, often with multiple actions, where one mistake can lead to a loss or significant setbacks) – and then I get distracted in real life (the phone rings, family members ask for something, etc. – there are many such situations – remember how I waited for you for almost an hour?). What should I do? Should I ask for an auto-pause? My opponent might suspect that I'm giving up (and if they compare the save files with the requested auto-pause after the game, their suspicions will only increase). This isn't right, in my opinion. Regarding unlimited turns, it's also debatable – I often play with it enabled and don't see any drawbacks; it's just more convenient, and the time spent is practically the same. I (and I think many others) appreciate this game for one of its most significant advantages: the calmness and the lack of a need to make quick decisions. Otherwise, it becomes closer to a competitive StarCraft, where 80% of the outcome depends on who is faster with the mouse and keyboard, and only 20% on who thinks better

Lider1

16 years ago

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Quote: Message from SAG
After the turn timer, the SOD limits are really annoying.

+2

And the time in battles is a good thing. Especially with the default time limit (not the Alexandrov one, of course :D).

4000 seconds from the start, and an increase of 500 seconds per turn (8 minutes) is quite enough, in my opinion.

I also like the feature as a time-saving mechanism. For example, if you manage to make your turn in 3 minutes, there's not much else to do, you pass, and your time goes into reserve. But in SOD, even if you manage to make the same turn in 6 minutes, you can miss something at the end while "thinking." In my opinion, there's a clear motivation to save time. Another plus is that sometimes in a game, there's a moment when you need to think and perform many actions, and the standard 6 minutes are simply not enough physically; you need 15 minutes, or even 20!

And that's where these reserves come in handy!

Also, the timer helps to combat unscrupulous players who get stuck in battles with neutrals, doing who knows what. That is, there's a lot of time, but you need to remember that it's still ticking, and you need to play the game, not do who knows what.

Well, if there are players who like to do who knows what together, and not just play the game, then there's a no-limit option for them :)

Maybe I'm playing wrong, but after a game, I usually have 5-6 thousand seconds left. (probably a habit from SOD) I click quickly. Once I had 8 thousand seconds in reserve :)

*And if you think the balance is on the edge, try playing with a 2-minute limit. There will be both "balance on the edge" and a lot of adrenaline :D

Captain

16 years ago

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Personally, for me, the downsides of the timed tactical encounter system are two things:
- battles with a ballista – for example, a couple of snakes and a ballista against 100 zombies
- if the problem is in reality, you need to "hang around" in the battle.

In reply to Wlk777

Wicc

16 years ago

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Wlk777

I still don't understand the idea of time in battles. Let's say I'm in a difficult battle, carefully planning my moves, etc. (and in my case, almost every turn is complex, and often involves multiple actions, where one mistake can lead to a loss or significant casualties).

But how is a battle better than building chains of actions? Why should time pass on the game map, but not in battle?

The cost of a mistake in building a chain of actions or in misinterpreting the information from scouting the land/air is no less than a blunder in battle.

- and then I get distracted in real life (the phone rings, family members ask for something, etc. - there are many situations - remember how I waited for you for almost an hour?). And what should I do? Should I ask for an auto-turn? My opponent might suspect that I'm giving up (and if they compare the saves after the game with the requested auto-turn, the suspicions will only increase).

Then you should play with unlimited time with that approach. Or somehow solve the problems with your family. My wife has already gotten used to not bothering me during my turn. And you can always call back on the phone.

It's not a good idea, IMO. Regarding unlimited time, it's also debatable - I often play with it and don't see any drawbacks, only convenience, and it takes about the same amount of time. I (and I think many others) appreciate this game for one of its most important advantages: calmness and the absence of the need to make quick moves; otherwise, it becomes closer to a networked StarCraft, where 80% depends on who is faster with the mouse and keyboard and 20% on who thinks better.

Unlimited time has its advantages; I often play with that control, especially if it's a regular sparring partner who hasn't been caught stalling.

However, in tournament games, there are situations where one of the players starts calculating moves so deeply that a turn takes an hour or two. To avoid such situations, time control is needed.

And yes, the speed of thinking and the dexterity of using the mouse and keyboard are also part of the skill.

A typical pose of a typical Heroes player during a game: sitting relaxed, with a gloomy-relaxed gaze, the left hand supporting the chin, the right hand lazily clicking.

While the correct option is: a focused pose, the right hand energetically clicking, the left hand typing on the keyboard (minimizing the number of mouse clicks), the gaze focused and intense. In general, like in StarCraft

In reply to Wicc

Wlk777

16 years ago

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Wicc

Well, what makes battles better than building chains? Why should time pass on the game map, but not in battles?

First of all, I apologize, but I think the developers of Heroes are not less intelligent than you. If they initially designed it this way, there's probably a reason. Secondly, battles and chains are simply different things, at least in terms of the time they take. Chains can and should be planned in advance, for example, during the opponent's turn. In battles, especially if morale is enabled for neutral creatures, the situation can change unexpectedly, so you have to think again. In general, the time element in battles creates a DIFFERENT GAME. It may have its fans, but it's not for me.

In reply to Captain

Alessandro

16 years ago

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Captain

Personally, I see two drawbacks to the TE system with a timer:
- battles with ballista, for example a couple of snakes and a ballista against 100 zombies
- if there's a real-life issue, you have to "pause" in the battle

Battles with ballista. You just need to set a normal limit, for example 4000+400, and then there will be enough time.
The real-life issue. When playing SoD, you have to enter the battle and then deal with real-life problems. When playing TE-light/TE/VT, you can immediately take care of matters without having to enter the battle, and my opponent has less desire to ask what I'm spending time on, because I am doing it on my own time. When I need to step away for a long time, I tell my opponent: "I need to step away, let my time run."

Although I agree with Captain's position that we used to play for 4 minutes without the lighter, and now with the lighter we can't even manage 6 minutes.
This is happening not only on HP and HeroesWorld, but also on the bay the limit keeps increasing:
1800+300, 3000+400, 4000+400, 4000+500 — who will bid higher?
I understand that in 30 minutes you can do much better than in 6, but in life we have more than just playing Heroes.

In reply to Wicc

Wlk777

16 years ago

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Wicc

Then you need to play with unlimited time. Or somehow solve the problems with your family. My wife has already gotten used to not approaching me during my turn. And you can always call back on the phone.

You won't believe it, but problems with real life happen not only to me. Often, the outcome of a game without a time limit is determined by the fact that someone gets distracted at the wrong moment. And wives and phone calls can be very different; you can't always ignore them, sometimes it can have consequences, you know ;)

Wicc

Unlimited time has its advantages; I often play with this control, especially if it's a regular sparring partner who isn't known for dragging things out.

However, in Tournaments, there are situations where one of the players starts calculating moves so deeply that a turn takes an hour or two. Time control is needed to avoid such situations.

You can play Tournaments with unlimited time, and just kick out the worst offenders (by the way, I haven't encountered any yet) and not accept them into new Tournaments. 99% of players are conscientious, and I don't understand why everyone should play under pressure because of one percent :confused:

Wicc

And yes, the speed of thinking and the dexterity of using the mouse and keyboard are also part of the skill.

A typical pose of a typical Heroes player during a game: he sits sprawled out, with a gloomy-relaxed look, his left hand supports his chin, and his right hand clicks listlessly.

While the correct option is: a focused pose, the right hand clicks energetically, the left hand types out commands on the keyboard (minimizing the number of mouse clicks), and the gaze is focused and intense. In general, like in StarCraft :)

StarCraft is a game for morons :D

In reply to Captain

Wicc

16 years ago

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Captain

For me personally, the downsides of the turn-based system with a timer are two things:
- battles with a ballista - for example, a couple of snakes and a ballista against 100 zombies
- if there's a problem in real life, you need to "hang out" in the battle.

- there's no point in fighting a couple of snakes against zombies :). Because it's not skill, but just grinding. Or quickly clicking in this battle.

- if there's a problem in real life, you can hang out in the turn-based mode.

In reply to Wicc

Wlk777

16 years ago

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Wicc

- there's no point in fighting a couple of snakes against zombies :). Because that's not skill, it's just grinding. Or clicking very quickly in that battle.

What are you even saying? And is killing with 20 grand wizards and a wagon for under 100 damage also grinding? Those who like to click quickly - GO to Starcraft and CS, stop promoting such terrible ideas here.

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