Posts from Club championship of the CIS countries.

Kostya, no one is being arrogant :cool:
In the list of those who voted, which Eric published, there was one person from your qualifying round (Mike). And I remember you wrote that you were delegating Mike to the final. That's how I concluded that there was one person from there.
Since Eric oversees the championship, I assumed that there was one person from your team. Does that make sense?

Tolya, we wrote the results:
1. Mike
2. Van
3. Whoever can find the money and time for the trip (although, formally, 3rd place was taken by Valenok)
because we understood that we wouldn't all go to Michurinsk or Kyiv, it's too far and expensive. But who can come is the tenth question. I'm just annoyed by phrases that imply that our qualifying round is inferior. I hope we just misunderstood each other a little, and it's not a real opinion of the public.

Wow, you've all written quite a bit! Of course, it's a shame that some people won't be able to travel... but the options are limited – some can only come to Kyiv, others only to Michurinsk. Regarding those who can come to Michurinsk: - The core group is from Siberia and Yekaterinburg. To be honest, Dust from Siberia won't be able to compete for a prize. Van... maybe... Mike is the strongest there. But I doubt he'll be able to come even to Michurinsk... for now, we're assuming we're living without sponsors. - Not much is heard about the players from Yekaterinburg... I'm also being honest, the chances of a prize winner coming from there are minimal. I apologize for the direct words, but sometimes you have to be like a surgeon when an amputation is necessary to save the body. From Moscow, Vitalik has a good chance of being in the top 3 – he told me about Kyiv. Ukraine, St. Petersburg, Belarus – they're all for Kyiv... and from here, the most realistic players... plus the Muscovites, if they meet, we'll see their results. Besides, everyone has already agreed on Kyiv, let's not change our plans – although if you want to talk, you won't stop! Therefore, my suggestions: - The prize winners write down their desired game version, templates, suggestions for the rules, etc. – so far, three people have voted: MerlinTheMagician, Aldegir, Forrest.

1). TE-full, just not TE-light (the so-called "compromise" — it's bare SoD, but without the bug-viewing capabilities)
2). 8MM6, 6LM10, 8XM12, JebusCross, Nostalgie
3). take the rules from RP4

Wow, you guys have written a lot! )
Of course, it's a pity that some people won't be able to come... but the choice is such that some can only come to Kyiv, others only to Michurinsk.

Regarding those who can come to Michurinsk:
- the core group is Siberia and Yekaterinburg. From Siberia, Dust... to be honest, he won't be able to compete for a prize-winning place. Van... maybe... Mike is the strongest there. But I doubt he'll be able to come even to Michurinsk... for now, we're assuming we're living without sponsors.
As for Yekaterinburg, I haven't heard much about these players... I'm also being honest, the chances of a prize-winner coming from there are minimal.

Sorry for the direct words, but here you need to be like a surgeon when you need to perform an amputation and save the body...

From Moscow, Vitalik has a good chance of being in the top 3 - he told me about Kyiv...

Ukraine, St. Petersburg, Belarus - they're all for Kyiv... and from here, the most realistic players... plus the Muscovites, if they meet, then... we'll see their results.

Besides, everyone has already agreed on Kyiv, let's not change horses midstream - although if you want to talk, you won't shut up :)

Therefore, my suggestions:
- the prize-winners write down the desired version of the game, templates, suggestions for the rules, etc. - so far, three people have voted: MerlinTheMagician, Aldegir, Forrest.

Anyone can beat anyone, I think this is a more or less adequate and close-to-the-game understanding, and in general, good luck, organize a small competition, play TE-full, and the heroic world will see a new champion.

Wow, you guys have written a lot!
Regarding those who might come to Michurinsk:
- The core group is from Siberia and Yekaterinburg. To be honest, Dust from Siberia won't be able to compete for a prize. Van... maybe. Mike is the strongest there. But I doubt he'll be able to come even to Michurinsk... for now, let's assume we're living without sponsors.
As for Yekaterinburg, I haven't heard much about these players... I'm also being honest, the chances of someone from there winning a prize are minimal.

Sorry for the blunt words, but sometimes you have to be like a surgeon when you need to amputate and save the body...

Allow me to add my two cents about Yekaterinburg...))
The fact that Captain hasn't heard anything about the third capital of Russia is his personal oversight. Our Heroes League has been around for over 10 years. We just haven't been boasting, but have been peacefully holding Championships for a more than respectable period. We've been doing it regularly. And Yekaterinburg is actually a "dark horse" that you can expect anything from. So, I wouldn't jump to conclusions about Yekaterinburg's chances.
Also, as part of the upcoming event, we could suggest exhibition matches with Team Formats (where one computer is used, and a three-headed dragon plays behind it).

And now, to the point.
I ask you to post a specific link to the rules that you are voting for, as well as links to the entire structure of the JebusCross and Nostalgie templates.

My IMHO: 1. When planning the finals, it is essential to consider potential qualifying rounds in Nizhny Novgorod, Yekaterinburg, and Kremlyandia (we should keep the latter in mind, but the others need a quota – after all, it's a unified tournament!). There's also the question of Minsk – they've been quiet lately, but if they come up with something, they're welcome! :) 2. Consider Kyiv as the main option for hosting the finals, and provide a mechanism to compensate players who are geographically distant (the ideal option would be to reduce their contribution to the prize pool, or allow them to opt out of contributing to the prize pool, with a corresponding reduction in their claims to the prizes, etc. – this is open for discussion!). However, the decision made must be supported unconditionally, including the criteria for such concessions... otherwise, unacceptable friction may arise during the tournament itself :smile30:. In fact, I think a verbal statement from the participant, in addition to geographical distance, is sufficient, as financial possibilities are not the same for everyone.... 3. If there is a widespread unwillingness to travel to Kyiv (to the point where it calls into question the legitimacy of the finals), have a backup option that everyone agrees on – whether it's Michurinsk or some city by the sea, this should be discussed in advance. As for Michurinsk, it's already sort of a backup plan. The main advantage of a resort option is that people travel there for at least 10 days, not just 3-4, so organizational issues can be resolved, and the tournament schedule can be relaxed. And if (it's good to dream!) we can find a club on the promenade or bring laptops, we can even join in on someone else's game! :D By the way, there's another option – not a club, but a mansion, which would solve the issues of both a club and accommodation in one go – but this requires the goodwill of the organizers to gather computers from local Heroes players, as not everyone can bring a laptop with them. And I repeat: these options are backup plans. Without having a say and looking at the situation from the outside, I'm in favor of Kyiv – having the outstanding contribution of the respected Eric to the Heroes community as an example, we should implement similar schemes in other locations as well :) :)

Regarding those who can come to Michurinsk:
- the core group consists of players from Siberia and Yekaterinburg. To be honest, Dust from Siberia won't be able to compete for a prize. Van - maybe... Mike is the strongest there. But I doubt he'll be able to come even to Michurinsk... for now, let's assume we're living without sponsors.
As for Yekaterinburg, I haven't heard much about these players... I'm also being honest, the chances of someone from there winning a prize are minimal.

Nagan, read this carefully! Why hold a final at all? We give the list of finalists to the Captain, and he decides who will be the winner and prize-winners, we announce them as champions, and that's it. Why does anyone need to travel anywhere? :))

I apologize for the direct words, but sometimes you need to be like a surgeon when you need to amputate and save the body...

Maybe someone needs to have their head cut off? :)) So they don't talk nonsense? ;)

Besides, everyone has already agreed on Kyiv, let's not change horses midstream - although if you want to talk, you won't stop :)

Captain, so far, in this thread, out of 20+ finalists, 10 have voted for Kyiv, and that's not just a simple majority, let alone a constitutional one ;)

Currently, Kyiv is supported only by those for whom it is not a problem to get there. As a result, the CIS championship automatically turns into a championship of the European part of the CIS, as the Urals and Siberia are simply excluded. And I don't understand why the qualifiers were held at all. I think this is wrong. And posts like Forrest's about 8 people and the Captain's about Siberians and Ural players who can't play Heroes are not only fundamentally wrong but also very harmful.
I would like to remind you that in Siberia, for example, one of the best Hv players, Dirty_Player, did not make it into the top three, who would give the same Captain a hundred times more in both offline and online games ;) Does this say something about the level of the tournament? Everyone, even the all-knowing Captain, seems to agree with Mike's skill, but Dust... well, if he can't play, what can we say about everyone else. I won't even talk about Yekaterinburg, I've heard about their Heroes community for a long time. It's definitely not worse than Kyiv's ;)
Therefore, I suggest not excluding anyone, but to consider two options.
First, choose a city as the venue for the final that is equally accessible to everyone (easy, difficult, underline as needed). There are three options here.
1. Yekaterinburg. All finalists can easily get there within a day or a little more. Moreover, whether it's from Moscow, Michurinsk, or St. Petersburg, or from Novosibirsk or Kemerovo, the travel time, and therefore the cost, are comparable. Kyiv and Minsk are a little worse in this regard, but still, it's not the same as Siberians traveling to the capital of Ukraine. The organization there will be at the highest level, I'm sure. There will also be plenty of interesting things to see for those who like to explore local attractions.
2. Michurinsk. There are no questions at all for the European part or even Yekaterinburg. It's a little harder for Siberia, but I definitely know that there are at least two trains (Vladivostok-Penza, Novosibirsk-Voronezh) that go in that direction. About two days, and from Penza or Voronezh to Michurinsk is just a stone's throw. The organization, well, there can be no doubt about it. Nagan is Nagan.
3. Surprisingly, Moscow. If they hold a qualifier, they will show that they can also hold a final. Nagan can also help there, it will be easier for him than in Kyiv. And it will not be more difficult for Siberians to get to Moscow than to Michurinsk. Everyone else will have no problems at all.
The financial aspect is approximately the same for everyone in this option. Guests - travel, the host side - costs for organization (renting apartments, renting a club, etc.)

Second, the venue is Kyiv. But, since the finalists are in unequal conditions, primarily financial, I suggest dividing all the expenses among everyone. In simple terms.
3 Siberians each spend $1000 on travel = $3000
3 from Yekaterinburg spend $700 each = $2100
12 other participants spend $200 each = $2400
3 hosts spend $500 each on organization = $1500
Total $9000. Divide by 21, we get $400+ per person. I think this is an acceptable amount for everyone. The prize fund is separate, if desired. Something like that.

By the way, about the attractions in Michurinsk. I still think that people come to play Heroes, not to go to museums ;)

Honestly, Dust from Siberia won't be able to compete for a prize. Van... maybe...

You didn't make it through the selection, so don't complain now :D

I don't even want to comment on the rest. Apparently, one of our players has to go, and you don't need Siberians or guys from Yekaterinburg – they just stir things up. You'll gather your European crowd again under the guise of a CIS Championship... well, good luck :smile32:

Of course, for all of you, getting to Kyiv is like me going to my dacha :D

Now, let's get down to business.
I ask that you post a specific link to the rules for which you are voting, as well as links to the entire structure of the JebusCross and Nostalgie templates.

I agree about the dark horse... but these dark horses need to learn a lot before the finals. Their detachment from the group (not playing on Heroes and World portals and not using templates) will not help them win :(

Regarding templates - /topic/6313/

There are currently three rule proposals: Rules for the Heroes portal, rules for the World portal, and rules for the RP-4 battle mode. Read them and vote.

I am adding another item to the voting - regarding finances - how much each person is willing to contribute to the treasury (for travel expenses to Siberia or prizes).

So, we continue voting:
1. preferred versions of Heroes
2. preferred templates
3. preferred rules
4. amount they can afford to put in.

It would be good to give more than one answer for each item - with the main one first, then a backup. For example, 1. TE-full, SoD.

Added… I gave in to some people's requests about money... so far, two people have messaged me saying that it’s unrealistic; people don’t want to pay an entry fee – this isn’t poker... although even poker players somehow have problems with money...

List of finalists:
Michurinsk: Lexa, PReDS, Stinger. 4th and 5th places - Mizrael and Scorp.
Kyiv: Aldegir, Forrest, Volodymyr. 4th and 5th places – Javdet and Lider.
St. Petersburg: Napalm, TERM, Bayazet. 4th and 5th places are Kral and Mike.
Siberia: Mike, Van, 3rd and 4th places – Dust and Logistic
Kingisepp: AlexTheGreat, KobRa_Spb, RolandFromGilead
Yekaterinburg: they will decide at a meeting on January 30th.

I was asked to share my thoughts, so here it is.

What goals should a general tournament set for itself?

1. Organizing regional gatherings. Look at Siberia, look at Ukraine; the qualifiers allowed players to meet, feel the "Heroes" community in person, and find friends. Old Heroes cities have come back to life – Yekaterinburg, Michurinsk. For once, a tournament was held in St. Petersburg, and I hope everything goes well in Moscow. Being friends online is one thing, but meeting in real life is an order of magnitude better. Naturally, people who took part in regional gatherings will be more willing to support such meetings in the future. And there will be fewer conflicts.

2. Uniting regional gatherings under a common goal. Naturally, the Heroes community will look much more solid with a recognized champion and a general tournament. A well-tuned system is more attractive for attracting both sponsors and newcomers.

3. Separating the wheat from the chaff. Previously, to become a "father" of the game, you had to go through a brutal grind in club tournaments. Stinger spent a long time proving his class in the Chaos League; Cobra and Alex-Great did so in the St. Petersburg tournaments. Anyone who really wanted to could come watch and see for themselves. No one disputed the skill level of the leaders.
Nowadays, to claim the role of a "father," you basically don't need to know how to play well. It is enough to carefully open the map editor, ensure saves are opened correctly, and lose occasionally—for example, in a 3:1 ratio. And that's it; your status as the strongest player is guaranteed. This isn't critical for fan games, but it's risky for internet tournaments. Of course, a young guy might want to become famous, earn praise from other players through his skill, and take 1st place.
Before, there was only one path—gradually increasing your skill. Now the detour is too tempting, especially for an ambitious nature. It's very hard to break the habit of using cheats; if the same-side draw is bad, the hand will instinctively reach for the editor, plus results will drop, and the person is already used to success.
As a result, a well-organized system of face-to-face tournaments will reveal true values. 8-10 club tournaments would cover the entire Heroes space.
And questions about cheating will quiet down because a person who has proven their high skill level in person will stand higher in the Heroes community than someone who only wins online. Even if a person shows incredibly successful results on the internet without demonstrating their mastery to other players in person, they cannot fully claim the role of a "father." Play in a regional club tournament, reach the final, show your level—then you're a father.

4. Creating new regional gatherings. Now, thanks to the internet, there are far more players. Previously, there were Moscow and St. Petersburg with a huge number of players (at least a hundred each). There were Kyiv, Minsk, Yekaterinburg, Michurinsk, Simferopol. In other regions, there were only loners or a couple of friends playing more or less seriously, but very few.
Look at it now. At most ten players are left from Moscow, and the same for Minsk. St. Petersburg probably has more, but not by much. Little remains of Simferopol; Michurinsk and Yekaterinburg remember better days. In theory, Heroes life should have died out, but that's not happening. Thanks to the internet, a decentralization of Heroes life occurred.
Therefore, new islands of Heroes life with very good people have appeared. As soon as they realize there is nothing scary about meeting in real life, they will look for like-minded people in their region. Let new Heroes centers emerge.

According to my assumptions, if everything goes well, then not 7 qualifiers, but at least a dozen might be held, and there could be nearly twice as many people at the second such tournament.

Now about the difficulties. I think we need to maintain a maximally constructive dialogue with both Yekaterinburg and Siberia. Yekaterinburg is one of the oldest Heroes centers and is very strong.
In the last general championship, all the "fathers" from Moscow and St. Petersburg played; breaking through them was almost impossible. Only VVV from Minsk and... Veks from Yekaterinburg managed to break into the top eight.
Moreover, he earned his spot. Why then, if they played well back then, should they play poorly now? Their face-to-face tournaments are held regularly, with fifteen players gathering.
Siberia. Very dynamic players—Dirty, Dreamcatcher, Mike, Alessandro, Van, Logistic, Valenok, Ketch, etc. There are many active forum members, as is already evident from the thread.
Why alienate them? People already live far away, huge distances, yet they still managed to meet.

Ignoring these two regions means that at the second such championship, we won't see two large gatherings. And potentially new gatherings, still in their infancy and unaware of their own strength, will also not unite. What is the point for organizers to hold them if they are designated as second-rate people in advance?
A unifying tournament simply won't happen.

Therefore, my suggestions:

- Find a common language with Siberia and Yekaterinburg. Seek maximum opportunities for their participation in the final, stop all talk of community weakness or players being unworthy; everyone is equal before the final.
- If that fails—organize a second semi-final.
Kyiv is holding its own tournament. The participation of players already announced there will ensure maximum interest from the Heroes community.
A second qualifier is ready to be held in Michurinsk. Benefits for players from Yekaterinburg and Siberia will include free accommodation, free play at the club, and no entry fees. Naturally, if they win, they will receive a prize pool of 20-30 thousand. A small amount compared to the cost of travel from Siberia there and back, but we'll keep working on it.
- Wait for the Muscovites. The situation there is complicated, but there are many players positively inclined toward the tournament. For once, Moscow has come alive; be sure to include its players in the final.
- Samurai wrote a very good post. Organizing a qualifier in Vladimir.
Starik lives there—perhaps the only strong organizer I don't know personally. He is the one who can run a qualifier. The participation of players like Samurai and Doberman will give the tournament status, and the convenient location of the city may ensure attendance for people from central Russia who missed the first qualifiers.

If they succeed—then great, then we'll truly attract everyone who wanted to play. If not—no matter, 7 qualifiers are also not bad.

An important point—two semi-finals will allow players, in an unfavorable scenario, to lose and still contend for the overall victory. 12 people in the tournament instead of 20-24.

The question may arise as to why I missed these points earlier. Because I make mistakes too. And I simply didn't expect such interest from players; I thought that managing to gather 4-5 qualifiers would already be a success.

To summarize:
Seek the maximum compromise with Siberia and Yekaterinburg. Actively contact Moscow and possibly Vladimir (if Starik organizes) so that these initiatives don't devolve into flood.
If a compromise is not reached—adopt the scheme with a second qualifier, two finalists each. But the tournament must be general, taking into account the interests of all healthy Heroes forces and with further development prospects. Otherwise, why bother with all this? IMHO.

Added after 1 hour 8 minutes
One more thing. The old "fathers" disagreed with the second semi-final. Let's analyze the situation.

So, a tournament is being played in Kyiv. After all, at any tournament, you can almost immediately see who is capable of winning and who plays the role of the peloton, even if it's a high-quality one. So if a person isn't contending for victory, what difference does it make to them whether they played in the semi-final or the final: since the participant list is the same, the format is the same, and the leisure is the same?

The two winners get fame and the prize fund. Then—they wait some day for the winners of the second qualifier to arrive.
Apparently, it's believed that the latter might be weaker. If so, 20-30 thousand (maybe more) in free money arrives. One game will bring 500 bucks. For that kind of money, Antal or Chaos would travel anywhere to play.
But I'm not entirely sure about unequivocally predictable results if people of the skill level of Pit, Marcon, Mike, and Merlin arrive.

So, refusing to seek mutually beneficial solutions not only strategically pushes the Heroes movement backward. It also hits the pocket—instead of 30, say, 60 thousand could be earned for a victory.

If people can't afford to travel due to the high cost of transportation, how will they pay the entry fees? (300-400 USD). There are 6-7 such people (Siberia, Yekaterinburg). Could you provide more details on how the prize pool is supposed to be formed (60,000 as stated above)?

For example, I travel to such events to socialize and play. Not to make money. Isn't fame, in case of a successful performance, a sufficient motivation? And in general, I am against entry fees that will be used as a prize pool. If the entry fees are used to cover travel expenses for those coming from far away, I'm all for it.

If people can't afford to travel due to the high cost of transportation, how will they pay the entry fees (300-400 USD)? There are 6-7 such people (Siberia, Yekaterinburg). Could you provide more details on how the prize pool is supposed to be formed (60,000, as mentioned above)?

For example, I'm attending this event to socialize and play, not to make money. Isn't fame, in case of a successful performance, a sufficient motivation? And in general, I'm against entry fees that will go towards the prize pool. If the entry fees are used to cover travel expenses for those coming from far away, I'm all for it.

Where does the 300-400 USD figure come from? It's much less.
I mentioned in my previous post that there will be no entry fees, accommodation costs, or computer fees for players from Siberia and Yekaterinburg.
This is definite.

How will the fund be formed? Surely, the other participants can contribute small amounts, say, two thousand rubles each.
Let's assume that 8 qualifying rounds will take place, and all 24 players will attend.
24 - 6 players from far away = 18 x 2 = 36,000 rubles.

Perhaps we can find sponsors in Michurinsk for 10-15 thousand rubles. If not, I will personally contribute without any problems. Probably, this is also possible in Kyiv. In total, we will get about 56-66 thousand rubles.
The amount seems small, but the prize pool at the previous all-inclusive tournament in Krasnodar was approximately the same - 2000 USD. And I don't remember any Heroes tournament where the prize pool was larger.

Moscow and St. Petersburg played a super match in 2002, with all the top players, and there was a lot of coverage about it; the prize pool was also 2000 USD.

There is plenty of time. If a person wants to come, they will come. Here are the estimated costs, as I see them in Michurinsk, the maximum costs for a player.

2000 rubles - contribution to the prize pool.
2400 rubles - accommodation in a hotel, only for those who cannot be accommodated for free. 4 days, not counting the last day of departure.
2000 rubles - well, let's say, travel expenses round trip. For example, for people from Moscow, the trip will cost about 600 rubles to Michurinsk.
Food - very cheap, about 200 rubles per day, which is quite reasonable.

We will try to solve the computer issue.
In total - at most - 7,000 rubles with a little. If everyone showed prudence and decided to play without entry fees, the total cost would be about 5000 rubles.

Surely, if an adult wants to play in a good, prestigious tournament with the best players from all over the CIS, they can raise this amount, especially since there are several months.

Of course, for people from Siberia or Yekaterinburg, it will be much more expensive due to the distance. If everyone decided to transfer the collected fund to them, that would be decent. If not, then free accommodation, a venue, and no entry fees for them are a must.

And again about Siberia... From Siberia: 1. Deep Mike - he said that his chances of coming anywhere are almost = 0. We need to ask him if he will come if everyone chips in for his travel expenses... 2. Van - he said he can go anywhere, whether it's Michurinsk or Kyiv. 3. Dust - he can only go to Michurinsk. His counterpart, Aldegyr, can only go to Kyiv and cannot go to Michurinsk. This is an either/or situation. Aldegyr is the winner among the strongest recognized players in Kyiv, and Dust finished 3rd or 4th in Siberia... Who should we choose? The question is: we collect money for Dust and Mike - they both go... logically, shouldn't we also collect money for Van? The total amount would be around 90,000 - that's about $3,000? This is if it's to Kyiv. If it's to Michurinsk, let the amount be half... In my opinion, it wouldn't be worth organizing with prize money... besides, there are people who can't even contribute $100... Yekaterinburg: let's wait for their meeting on January 30th. They promised to tell us something - who will go, where, etc.

Once again, about Siberia...
Aldegir is the winner among the strongest and most recognized Heroes players in Kyiv, and Dust finished 3rd-4th in Siberia... Who should I choose?

You're such a pain, it seems like you all have amazing players, and we're just a bunch of losers :D, IMO, the only player I can consistently call a "dad" is Forrest, I challenge you to a Heroes duel, weapon - SOD, rules - Hv, turn time 6 minutes :D :D :D, ICQ 589156325