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2 Zingel
I didn't see the "speed" parameter or abilities like counter-attack, etc.
I didn't see the "speed" parameter or abilities like counter-attack, etc.
Qwerty
Posts from - Units in Heroes 3
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Qwerty
Zingel
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I didn't see the "speed" parameter or abilities, like retaliation and so on.
It's not clear yet how to calculate those.
All of this is also done via coefficients, but calculating the value (significance) of these coefficients is very difficult and debatable.
For example:
We get a range of values for level 1 units from 100 to 150
speed values from 3 to 9 - in principle, the coeff. can be 1
no retaliation - (+10)
magic resistance - (+3)
magic ability 1 - ?
magic ability 2 - ?
magic ability 3 - ?
magic ability 4 - ?
Fly - (+10)
Multi-target attack -
Multi-retaliation -
(In short, everything will have to be listed)
So for now, without abilities and speed (let's just calculate raw physical strength :) ). We'll see how that works out, and then we'll go from there.
Герои - это клёво.
AmberSoler
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Dam - the average damage (Dam_max-Dam_min)/2
1. "Combat power" of 1 unit = AS*Dam*0.05+DS*HP*0.025
Zingel
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I think there was a typo. You probably meant the sum, not the difference...
Nothing ever works out right on the first try!
Of course! Thanks!
(Fixed)
AmberSoler, How do you like the proposed scheme? I see you're taking a thoughtful approach to this issue.
Also, I ask the others to comment and, if possible, add, remove, or change certain aspects of the formula.
Герои - это клёво.
Qwerty
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In my opinion, speed is one of the most important parameters (otherwise, Sir Mullich wouldn't be one of the strongest heroes). Without considering speed, I don't see any point in even trying to derive a formula.
Abilities are also important: for example, upgraded fairies work wonders thanks to the combination of flight and retaliatory strike (as well as speed). By the way, the AI ranks devils among the top-tier non-upgraded level 7 units precisely because of the retaliatory strike.
I don't even need to mention vampire lords.
Zingel
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I believe there was a typo. You can certainly consider the product of attack power and the average damage as a parameter of a unit's relative strength, but the product of defense and HP doesn't seem to have much meaning... Simply because HP can also be included as a multiplier in the first part of your formula. This parameter is not related, unlike Damage, to either the attack or the defense of the unit...
Everything is clear with the attack. But let's analyze defense and HP:
The product of Def and HP is nothing more than the relative survivability of a unit.
I suggest introducing a "1.5" coefficient to survivability for the "unreturned strike."
Speed... How can we calculate
Герои - это клёво.
AmberSoler
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I also ask the others to comment and, if possible, add, remove, or change certain aspects of the formula.
Regarding the formula, my initial thoughts are outlined above. In general, creating a single parametric index designed to account for various unrelated characteristics of an object (this applies not only to our discussion but to any other) is a whole science. How do you compare speed, defense, and growth? Here, it is necessary to "weigh" each parameter based on its usefulness in the game. And this is already a variable value...
For Galtran, for example, skeletons have a lot of value due to his specialization, but for Sir Mullich, it's the opposite – even one skeleton in the army reduces the morale of all troops. So, what is the value of a skeleton in the game in this case? And if we consider units outside of the hero controlling them, it is meaningless by definition – have you ever seen neutral creatures fighting each other? They might fight at night, of course, but what do we care about that? :)
Zingel
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Regarding the formula – the initial considerations are outlined above. In general, creating a single parametric index designed to account for various unrelated characteristics of an object (this applies not only to our discussion but to any other) is a whole science. How do you compare speed, defense, and growth? Here, it is necessary to "weigh" each parameter based on its usefulness in the game. And this is already a variable value...
For Galtran, for example, skeletons have a lot of value due to his specialization, but for Sir Mullich, it's the opposite – even one skeleton in the army reduces the morale of all troops. So, what is the value of a skeleton in the game in this case? And if we consider units outside of the hero controlling them, it's meaningless by definition – have you ever seen neutral creatures fighting each other? They might fight at night, of course, but what do we care about that? :)
I can't help but agree with you.
However, the developers must have some kind of scheme for calculating scores for races and units in particular. After all, they somehow calculate the balance! They adjust it later with the help of testers, but they don't just guess the values at the beginning! :)
Ideally, the goal of this formula is to accurately calculate the strength of a race's army, but in our case, it's much simpler: to create a table of the relative effectiveness of units. Basically, a guide for beginner gamers.
Герои - это клёво.
AmberSoler
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I suggest introducing the "unreturned strike" mechanic using a "1.5" coefficient for resilience.
The point is that the unreturned strike can be equated not only to a coefficient of 1.5, but also to 5.5 and 10...
Ideally, the purpose of this formula is to accurately calculate the strength of an army of a particular race, but in our case, everything is much simpler: create a table of conditional unit effectiveness.
We said earlier that a Fairy can defeat any number of slow units. This means that a Fairy is, let's say, "stronger" than 1000 Dryads. I don't think you'll argue with that... But 1000 Dryads are definitely stronger than 1 Azure Dragon. See where I'm going with this? According to the law of transitivity (let's remember fifth-grade math:) ), we conclude that a Fairy is stronger than a Dragon. There's your unreturned strike... But that's not all. Let's continue...
Any archer is stronger than a Fairy. Therefore, accordingly, it is also stronger than an Azure Dragon, right? But have you ever seen an archer defeat an Azure Dragon? :) There is a paradox: an archer is stronger and weaker than a dragon at the same time, which cannot be.
Hence, the conclusion:
A unit's strength is NOT a constant parameter, but a relative one - and depends exclusively on the opponent it encounters.
The theorem is considered proven. :)
And what kind of table can we draw now? :)
This topic has been discussed in many Heroes forums and very fundamentally, I must say. Most of the "leading minds" :) tend to believe that such assessments are useless. The proof is above.
But this does not mean that the topic should be closed. On the contrary, such reasoning allows the player to learn to think during the game... Heroes is almost like chess. That's what makes it interesting. Exchanging opinions in the form of a discussion is very useful for any forum reader. But a table is dogmatic. It imposes someone else's opinion. Perhaps it would be better to develop a list of key points to which it is recommended to pay attention during battle? And then - the field is open, and any player will find their own "tricks" in battle for each unit...
***JOKER***
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There's a small note here... When evaluating the ranking of Fairies, you don't take into account their ability to deliver a retaliatory strike, which could allow them to emerge from a battle with an opponent without any losses... So, Fairies are infinitely stronger than any non-shooting slow units (Gnomes, Dryads, Zombies, etc.).
Oh, I noticed something else:D. Are Fairies better than Dryads? Well, that's probably a typo. It's impossible; their speed won't save them (Fairies). Fairies have 3 health, Dryads have 65!!! That's 21 times more! Plus, there's such a difference in levels!
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Zingel
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To @AmberSoler:
Everything is clear. The thread can be closed! :)
And what are we supposed to talk about now? :)
At least there was some interest before, but now what? :-)
I suggest adjusting your signature slightly:
___________________________
In the beginning was the word... and then came the great Spoiler and everyone fell silent....
:)
Now, so as not to go Off-Topic:
Even though the theorem has already been proven more than once... :) it is possible to create a conditional table that is slightly more accurate than simply listing units in descending order of their HP!
Those who have the opportunity, please calculate the points for at least these fairies, halberdiers, skeletons, and gnolls using the formula mentioned above! :) ... Otherwise, I'll just calculate them myself! :)
Everything is clear. The thread can be closed! :)
And what are we supposed to talk about now? :)
At least there was some interest before, but now what? :-)
I suggest adjusting your signature slightly:
___________________________
In the beginning was the word... and then came the great Spoiler and everyone fell silent....
:)
Now, so as not to go Off-Topic:
Even though the theorem has already been proven more than once... :) it is possible to create a conditional table that is slightly more accurate than simply listing units in descending order of their HP!
Those who have the opportunity, please calculate the points for at least these fairies, halberdiers, skeletons, and gnolls using the formula mentioned above! :) ... Otherwise, I'll just calculate them myself! :)
Герои - это клёво.
AmberSoler
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...oh, what else I noticed...:D Fairies are better than dendroids? well that's probably a typo. It' same not possible, their speed won't save them (the fairies). Fairy health - 3, dendroids - 65!!! 21 times more! especially with such a difference in levels!
No-no... You are right regarding the comparison of stats - a Fairy is weaker than a Dendroid.
But in battle, using an option like "Wait", a fairy has an unopposed strike, after which she can return to her original position. And therefore, theoretically — since we are considering specifically the possibilities of unit abilities — a fairy will take down any number of dendroids. If there were time. Which means — she is stronger! :)
Qwerty
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Yes, as I wrote above, creating such a formula is impossible.
However, it is possible to create a conditional list of creatures based on their strength. This list will not claim to be universal, but it will serve as a kind of "initial guide" for beginners.
AmberSoler
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What are we going to talk about now? :)
At least there was some interest before, but what is there now? :-)
Do you remember the Moomin trolls, and how the character had problems after he put the "last stamp" in his album and lamented the lack of prospects for his development? :)
I apologize for "killing the topic." I hope you didn't mean it badly... :) And as for what to talk about, there are endless topics... and you know that...
Added 8 minutes later
Yes, as I wrote above, it is impossible to create such a formula.
However, it is possible to create a conditional list of creatures based on their strength. This list will not claim to be universal, but it will be a kind of "initial hint" for beginners.
Then I suggest comparing units without going beyond their level. All units of the first level - among themselves, the second - also, and so on. This will be more fair... Just without formulas, because it is unlikely to be correct.
Qwerty
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Yeah, something along those lines. We'll come up with SOME KIND OF FORMULA (absurd, isn't it?), and we'll adjust it based on practical experience from playing the game. As a result, we'll figure something out.
I studied this issue in detail in the appendix to the second Heroes game, and I also studied materials written by others, and came to the conclusion that it is impossible to create a formula.
Here, we'll need to create two lists: one taking into account the increase, and one without it.
Regarding special buildings, there are also many questions: for example, I built the Fairy Glen very often, but I never built the Skeleton Mound. And I've never seen players do this in actual gameplay.
I studied this issue in detail in the appendix to the second Heroes game, and I also studied materials written by others, and came to the conclusion that it is impossible to create a formula.
Here, we'll need to create two lists: one taking into account the increase, and one without it.
Regarding special buildings, there are also many questions: for example, I built the Fairy Glen very often, but I never built the Skeleton Mound. And I've never seen players do this in actual gameplay.