Posts from Should we ban the Griffin Conservatory and the Hive of Serpents?

In my opinion, Heroes is such a diverse game that if you enjoy it, it's not difficult to find settings that will suit both you and your potential opponent. Want to play with a 2-minute timer? No problem. Do you like randomness? That's also possible. Don't like certain game elements – hives, the red sphere of prohibition – you can remove them and play with fixed settings. Want to add more stability? There's the TE (Tactical Engine). Want uniform battles without losses? Turn off morale. But blaming the generator for losses is definitely not my style.

Thanks to everyone who participated in the discussion, and a special thanks to Britva (Andrey). It's a pity that I didn't see any understanding from almost anyone, although I respect other people's opinions and I'm not going to give up on my own. The arguments didn't convince me, I'm sorry. A native secondary resource, plus a bunch of hidden resources and money to buy all of this, is much rarer than the huge imbalance in the number of those infamous Conservatories and Hives. That's a fact. Honestly, I like a tough endgame, which is rarely achieved with the usual imbalance in these objects. If something is wrong, I apologize, feel free to criticize me as much as you want, but I think that's exactly how it should be, and no other way.
P.S. Regarding the limitations, the idea is in the right direction, but it's debatable in my opinion.
P.P.S. Thanks to everyone.

Added 2 minutes ago

bRitvo4kA said it right - go play on the fixed versions if you're already tired of this hero diversity :)

The "diversity" expressed in the huge imbalance of distributed Conservatories and Hives is what I'm tired of. I don't argue :cool:

Despite my attitude toward conservatories, I will abstain from voting... Although I was rushed, and am still being rushed by these wyverns and angels... Honestly, I would probably only benefit from this ban, both in the ratings and in Tournaments.




- third week, jebus cross (no rush)

I suspect my opinion won’t be highly respected here either :) (due to my low skill level), but I’ll still speak my mind...
Yes, and I’ve been rushed by those same angels many times, once the opponent literally got 5 cons with an external dwelling of angels just on the starting respawn :rolleyes: , but I would never ban either them or the Hives, because what really ends up happening? One player gets a generator that throws both external dwellings and treasure chests for buyout and construction, while the other just gets Hives and cons with some other useless junk for change (and believe me, that happens, and not that rarely) :D ! Having allowed :) cons and Hives adds a special thrill to the game — if you don’t see them on your side, don’t whine — head toward the opponent faster (from the end of the first, start of the second week at least) and snatch them from under his nose, or find other paths of development. And what’s the point if you’ve looted all sorts of free crypts and gnome huts (let’s say a total of 5-10 of them on a couple of respawns), built up, bought everything — came and killed your opponent with his banned cons and his pockets full of cash.
There are already more bans than enough in the rules, and I think a new ban in the GENERAL rules won’t lead to anything good; personally IMHO, like many others, I’ll either stop playing entirely or will secretly :D make deals and play by the “pre-revolutionary” rules :p . Although I myself take these buildings not like I’m cracking sunflower seeds, but with losses, and very rarely as handouts, as most of them should be taken (:o I only recently started slowly taking Hives on week 2 in online games...).

Despite my attitude towards conservatories, I will abstain from voting... Although they keep rushing me with these wyverns and angels... Honestly, I think I would probably benefit from this ban, both in terms of ranking and in tournaments.


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- third week, Jebus Cross

Volodya, what kind of "rush" can there be at the end of the third week on Jebus Cross? This isn't a rush; it's just that there's nowhere else to go

For those who like to discuss balance, well, they banned cons and hives. Okay. Now I'm playing as Elves. I get a small Elven town, or even worse, a secondary town of my own faction. The path to the opponent's town isn't through their territory. I have a decent amount of money. I arrive at the opponent's town with Kirra, having 40,000 gold and a full shopping list, at level 121-123. What can they possibly counter with? Any town. Maybe a hero-mage?:D

For those who like to discuss balance — well, Griffins and Hives were banned. Okay.

And simply those who like to discuss balance mostly play as Castle and Rampart, where all you need to do is upgrade the shooters and break everything in sight.

Perfect balance will never exist in Heroes. If we ban cons and hives, then external dwellings and secondary skills will start to decide the outcome. Then there are artifacts; someone suggested banning the teapot, but probably didn't consider that there is a sword +5 for all, shield +4 for all, necklace +3 for all, sandals +2 for all, and you can keep banning until it becomes absurd. Even artifacts in the same weight category have different power levels. Look at the troops: few units deal fixed damage (angels, nagas, for example), mostly there is a damage range! If every unit dealt fixed damage (under a blessing :D), the game would hardly be interesting and would quickly become tedious!

If you love conducting final battles, then Tactical Corners is for you. "Tactical Corners is a brainstorming session. The pinnacle of mastery" (c) Forrest

If you want more even balance—fixes. And pay special attention to THE ones!!!

If you want perfect balance—chess, undoubtedly.



Imho, if cons/hives are completely banned, the game will become boring. Cons/hives, like Dragon Utopia, have become elements of strategy and the "joy" of the random-seeker. Just playing to meet with native troops on the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th week and bash each other—well, again, there is Tactical Corners. And various arenas.

The factor of randomness itself is pleasant. But a lot also depends on the distribution (if playing for the win). However, winning with a worse layout—now that is mastery! (reports from Paladin, Pete, Lesgor... and other strongest players).

And seeking the reasons for every single defeat only in the fact that the opponent "got better distribution" of cons/hives/(Dragon Utopia) just looks like bruised ego from the outside.

I completely agree with the previous opinions that: - for balancing the game, please provide fixes and avoid making them random; randomness is randomness. - to balance the final battles, where angels and wyverns decide the outcome (by the way, this also applies to stats and other artifacts - for example, the Red Orb and the Cursed Armor + the Sniper's Bow for the tower will stop the enthusiasm of many collectors) - please use Town Capture 3 (TC3) - there are ONLY native troops, except for the random resurrection. But no one has added another point. 3-5 angels from an opponent on the second week are not so critical, unless he rushes with them on day 121. In my time, it was impossible to rush the Paladin; I would come to him on day 122 with a fully stocked conf, but due to knowledge of the pattern and level of play, and mental stability in the face of such visits (he didn't fall apart and didn't get upset), he would manage with the same conf and hives from the treasury and stats. Here, it's up to chance how the map is laid out, and there are often things to find in the treasury, and they are also connected to other secondary resources, from which there is a passage to another treasury. That is, there are options - the main thing is to buy troops for 2 weeks, and if someone comes to rush, go to the treasury and, by losing tempo, get ahead of the opponent there. As far as I know, in the Tournament Edition on the 8mm6 map, the whole game is built this way - you buy troops and look for resources; the territory allows you to expand. Reducing the game to focusing on the capital, its defense, and battles with native troops is, in my opinion, already a primitive game.

I'm facing Kirra with 40 grand on day 121-123 and a full buy-out. What can he possibly counter me with? Any Castle. Maybe a mage hero?:D

It's the same thing every 10th game :mad: And 5-10 angels are normal on the 2nd week, right? Tell me it never happens :o And besides, reaching day 121-123 to attack an opponent isn't always that far. And 40 grand isn't really an unbeatable force; there are many things you can counter it with, regardless of the Castle. But it's funny how some people argue when you kill their main hero on the 2nd week with their entire army – okay, I could have gone to the Treasury to get some ducks, but I'll just surrender.

Added after 13 minutes

And those who like to talk about balance mostly play Castle and Rampart, where you just need to upgrade archers and destroy everything.

Let's continue – with Tower, you upgrade gremlins and destroy everything with mages. Necropolis – it's obvious. Dungeon – upgrade troglodytes and destroy everything. Conflux – upgrade air units, build harpies, and destroy everything. Barbarian – upgrade harpies, build bears, and destroy everything. Swamp – just destroy everything. Or maybe it's still easier to destroy everything with free angels and vivs, right? I don't mind that, as long as they are distributed evenly and not with such a wild variance.

In my game with Kesh, he came with 20 Angels, towards the end of turn 3 or the beginning of turn 4, and thanks to 2 Hives and Victor's mistakes, he managed to escape with 8 Angels!!
The game ended in a draw!!

For those who like to discuss balance – well, they banned cons and hives. Okay. Now I'm playing as Elves. I get a small elf town, or even worse, a secondary town of my own faction. The path to the opponent's town isn't through their territory. I have a decent amount of money. I arrive at the opponent's town with Kirra, 40 grand on turn 121-123, and a full buy-out. What can they possibly counter with? Any town. Maybe a hero-mage?:D

There are many counters possible, and an extra 10-20 elves is laughable compared to 5-10 angels. That's a fact.

The idea isn't new. But the poll shows the attitude of most people towards this issue.

The idea isn't new. But the poll shows the majority's attitude towards this issue.

I agree, it's strange that I didn't see any good and convincing arguments. Is hiding with the Elves an unbeatable force? :confused:

I agree, it's strange that I didn't see any good and convincing arguments. Is the "elf rush" an unbeatable force? :confused:

Simply, no one presented good arguments in favor of the ban either.