Posts from Counter-heroes in duel mode (3.1).

Good day!

First of all, I want to express my gratitude to everyone who has posted in this thread, because as someone just starting to play on the anniversary server now, it would have been quite difficult without all this information. Although it's still not easy, at least you understand where you messed up and why your opponent played a certain way ;) .

Secondly, I'd like to liven up the thread a bit. Comrades, more interesting replays please; duel players surely have recordings of interesting battles. After all, this is an excellent tactical guide for beginners like me.

I also ask for help with Orcs, both theoretically and in replays ;) , because I still haven't passed the PO (and it's hard to say when that will happen, as my same-turn speed is a disaster) and I have a poor idea of how to "prepare" them and with what. In other words, if any Orc drops for me in random, I 100% lose :( .

In general, write back if there are still any living souls left on the forum :D Not only practice but also a theoretical, so to speak, platform is important.

Below, based on the posts of all participants in this thread, I am posting a list of counter-heroes (Hero - their counters) in duels for version 3.1 (to help the noobs). I ask experienced duelists to comment on any additions/inaccuracies:

Ossir - Iris (over 50%), Nimus, Sinitar, Ibba, Letos, same for Carly. Against Ossir, Anven and Marbas are 20-percenters, but I would raise Vitya, Ibba, Helmar to 50%, especially Vitya.

Nimus – Ossir, Sinitar, Anven, Iris, Orson, Ora, Helmar, Letos.

Iris – Ibba, Orson, Ossir, Deidra (over 50%), Anven and Letos (15-25%)
Tactics for Deidra against Irka from ildaryk:
"...there is a certain pattern of Deidra's moves that you need to know. Roughly: wait with troops until the griffins take off, then banshee scream, mass haste, mass cure, then vamp on dragons; if necessary, berserk on knights and another vamp on dragons if it wears off - that's in brief..."

Helmar – Anven (doesn't work? ildaryk), Iris (beats him, chance over 50%, verified), Marbas, Carly, Garuna (beats him)

Deidra – Jalib, Ravenna, Marbas
Tactics for Marbas from ildaryk:
"...the placement must be correct, specifically the demonesses hide behind lords and demons, imps are placed between two devils, dogs on the other flank from the demonesses, also the devil closest to the lords should not stand adjacent but one cell away.
Everyone stands in defense; when necromancers approach the demons, Marbas simply blasts them with fireballs (after the same, if not in berserk, they shoot off those who were blasted), once they get close we place grills right in front of the devils and lords and that's it)...".

Jalib – Deleb (over 50%), Ravenna (beats him, chance over 50%, verified), Orson, Iris, Anven, Nimus, Helmar.

Orson – Ossir, Erin

Letos – Anven, Deidra, Ibba

Anven – Deidra, Marbas, Haggesh

Marbas- Vitya

Vitya – Ravenna, Garuna, Anya (beats him, chance over 50%, verified), Nimus (beats him)

Ravenna - Garuna
Tactics for Garuna against Ravva from ConServator:
"... the situation in a battle of Garuna against Ravenna. Ravenna is also Chaos, and there's a chance that resist will work against her spells. Usually, vamps among the necro troops attack first; they need to be taken out immediately so they don't have time to blind a significant part of the Orc troops. If the player orders the vampires to wait, then shift the troops slightly forward and put Orc fighters in the path of the expected spectral dragon attack. There is now a greater chance that the opponent will order an attack, and after that, concentrate the attack on the dragons. It's preferable to remove retaliation from dragons and vampires using goblins and orcs or cyclops. Use aid for centaurs, and during Garuna's subsequent turns - either a morale call or direct attacks. Also, if possible, remove stun with the leader's command..."

Carly – Ibba (beats her), Helmar, Ravenna, Sinitar, Jalib, Anven, Iris, Marbas, Shak-Karukat.
Here are tactics for Ravenna from Alex_R (post 101 of the thread):
... it's best to take Ravenna and beat Carly - you need to try to follow simple rules/tips.
1) Do not attack units under the "incorporeal" rune
2) With Chaos magic, naturally hit those who don't have a rune protecting against elements
3) It would be good in the first round to kill artillery with a ring of cold and catch high-level monsters at the same time (ideally Jarl and Dragon).
4) Do not expose yourself to battle fury, especially from Jarls and Dragons. Maximum 2 units nearby.
5) And the tactic itself - a defensive style of play with careful troop advancement or counterattacks - calculating for a prolonged battle in which Carly's chances tend toward "0"
P.S. Also the hero herself (Ravenna) is such that she isn't particularly feared, so feel free to put her against those like Carly, Jalib, Deidra, Axel.
P.S.P.S. And in my opinion, Ravenna vs Razzak is a very interesting pair

Sinitar – Ora

Dirael - Razzak

Ora- Letos, Shakkurat, Ravenna, Orson.

Ibba - Ravenna (beats her), Marbas, Letos

Axel - Ravenna (beats him), Deleb
Tactics for playing as Ax against Irka and Vitya from ildaryk:

axel-vitya.

here if you play as ax, the first turn is definitely mass evasion, then prayer, then oversight on paladins, that's if vitya plays correctly. Then it's better to hit griffins with paladins first, otherwise they will be practically impossible to take down later. And there are many small nuances in this pair, like placing as many troops as possible near the knights during initial placement because of the big shield. And then it's preferable to always move knights together with paladins and other troops. A rather funny moment is when a bunch of ax's shooters run on parallel courses with the knights. It looks quite ridiculous, but this happens quite often.

axel-ayria.

Here, for the first turn, you must either wait with paladins or move two cells, while creating a gap in front of the crossbowmen with all troops. And have the crossbows retreat from diving griffins, if you manage to, of course. And generally, don't let paladins and archers get close to ayri's knights and peasants (or they'll stomp them). Then on the second turn, paladins must hit the arriving griffins. Ax can use general evasion again for the first turn, general divine power (or vice versa), prayer, oversight; a direct attack by ax is also welcome (morale reduction); after divine power runs out, general divine power again.

Shak-Karukat - Ibba (beats him).
" He is usually taken out by similar comrades, i.e., those with skillful defense and high meat, like Marbas, Carla, Orson, Ayri (naturally), and there are other heroes who can do it, but you have to be able to beat him. He also has natural counter-heroes: Jalib, Deidra, Ossir, Helmar. You can try to take him down with chaos specialists like Sinitar, Ora, Ravenna, but again, you'll need to strain yourself and be lucky, especially with Sinit." (thanks ildaryk).

Razzak - "Razzak will be stronger than Sinit; Dira is equal or slightly weaker than Deleb, Ravenna, Nimus; Haggesh can win if lucky with terrain, morale, artifacts, Ossir, Axel, Shak, Iris. His tactical tricks are very chess-like; you need to calculate several moves ahead, constantly considering the possibility of morale triggering. It's very difficult, but he wins very beautifully.
Tactics for Razzak are as follows - very thoughtful, very careful microcontrol. You must monitor the initiative line very closely, calculate possible chances of morale triggering, how much Razzak will shift when burning artifacts, and the possibility of throwing golems or titans into a sudden attack (titans preferred) and many other things." (ildaryk) Also a detailed description of tactics for Razzak is in post 118 of this thread by Alex_R.

As additions/corrections from forum members come in, the list will be adjusted/expanded.

I am VERY interested in Haggesh vs Ossir. You write that with a certain troop placement, Ossir loses to Haggesh without question. Where is the replay? I'm doubly interested because an Orc is involved.

Or maybe all tactics are a terrible secret, like Stradivarius's secrets? Saving them to pass on to your grandchildren? :D

Share, share the information! ;)

Added after 23 hours 45 minutes
Good morning everyone!

We continue our radio broadcast directly from the scene.

Actually, very briefly, because today's weather simply demands that we stock up and have a shashlik party ;)

Here is the question:
Are there rules of conduct for online players during a duel (anniversary)?
For example, yesterday, playing against an opponent (Anya vs Vitya), when everything became obvious, he simply disconnected. As a result, a server error occurred on the anniversary server (my rating wasn't counted). But I don't worry about the rating; it's just that he could have said something for politeness... "I surrender, oh master!" or something like that :D

On the other hand, I'm also not interested in playing games with Orcs when Helmar drops (no chance there). Can I flee from the battlefield (not disconnect, but flee!) ? Do I need to notify or ask the opponent about this? :smile33:

Happy shashliks to all! :smile54:

P.S. Save Anya is beating Vitya :)

Let's continue:

Deidra makes excellent use of light magic (thanks for the tip in this thread).
Helmar defeats Nimues (we don't touch the summoned creatures, as mentioned in the thread, thanks again). :smile20:

In general, I'm slowly gaining experience, and things aren't as bad as they were at the beginning ;) Of course, I also lose. I lost a battle against Raven with Shag'Karath due to incorrect troop placement and I should have played defensively...
Do you have replays where you managed to defeat a stronger opponent with a deliberately weaker hero? That would be even more interesting than counter-strategies.

Phew... So many questions, I don't even know where to start:confused:
I'll try to answer them in order.
- Regarding replays, I already posted them in the adjacent thread about replays; there are many, as well as matchups that are difficult to analyze.
- Regarding counter-heroes, I'll describe it only for Ossir and Aire:
Ossir has many counters, but he usually wins against most of them. Only Aire can defeat him with a slight advantage, and even then, it's debatable.
Vitya can't defeat him at all, no matter how hard he tries. Ossir has his own counter-arguments against Vitya, which are much more effective than Vitya's.
I would only play Aire against Ossir; all the others are somewhere in the 15-25 percent range.
Aire is a ruthless lady. She has only one counter: Daedra. She can't do anything against the Inquisitor, almost 100 percent. Orson and Anven with Letos can also counter her, but to a much lesser extent (also 15-25).

- What about Haggeesh vs. Ossir? Well, it all depends on the initial lineup; often, Haggeesh's shooters move before Ossir's and manage to seriously damage Ossir's shooters. Then, you can scare the horses or the druids. In general, I don't really like this matchup, as well as all matchups involving Orcs. Here, everything depends on very careful micro-management of the creatures and tactics. And when you think you've controlled everything and done it right, your Orcs suddenly start acting up, and all the tactics built on the assumption that the Orcs will somehow manage to maintain morale go to waste. In general, I don't like Orcs.

- Helmar against Orcs. Garuna can defeat him very well, if he's lucky.

In general, practice playing Axel against a random hero. He's a very good hero for training tactical thinking

When it comes to Orcs, I find the battles between Garuna and Ravenna, Hellmar, and Vitto interesting. In the first one, resistance and luck play a big role; otherwise, Chaos and the Princes might not leave any chance for victory at the very beginning. As for Hellmar and Vitto, it seems we've discussed this several times in this thread. Also, the battle between Ory and Leto is interesting. Technically, Leto has the advantage, but I've sometimes managed to win with Ory in this match, even though I don't consider myself a very strong player. Naturally, the black dragons are the key here, and you need to focus all possible physical attacks on them. You should cast Mage's Bane on the witches or hunters at the very beginning and attack with Chaos. Divide the gargoyles into two stacks and either use them to protect the archers and golems or expose them to the enemy stacks. Also, keep in mind that the enemy will use Berserk or Subjugation (usually cast on djinns or mages), so at the beginning, position your troops to protect the mages and golems. You should definitely protect the latter throughout the battle, carefully plan each of their moves, and heal them with Chaos when needed. It wouldn't be bad to attack the black dragons first, removing their retaliation, but again, you need to calculate the attack so that the golems aren't torn to shreds afterward, or you can postpone the attack altogether. Leave the hydras for last, as they are too tough and not that scary with their low initiative. Towards the end, when usually only hydras and golems remain, I create a path of fire and either run around it with the golems, attacking the hydras directly with the hero, or I position them in a corner of the battlefield and wait in the wall of fire if there are two stacks of hydras. The battle between Vittorio and Nimue is debatable, as again, much depends on Nimue's luck. If she fails to eliminate the defensive stacks at the beginning, by the middle of the battle, Vittorio's powerful ranged attack, combined with Light and Darkness, will shift the advantage to his side. Against Iris, I don't see a better counter-hero than Deirdra. You can win in this matchup with Deirdra without much skill or effort. Ibba does a good job against Iris's griffons with her Rune of Invulnerability, berserkers with their retaliation, and the Arkat bears and warriors, which also have a chance to retaliate. But again, eliminating the griffons is only half the battle; against the remaining low-level creatures, Ibba usually lacks something, and the battle usually ends there. Unfortunately, I don't have the habit of saving replays of difficult battles, which I regret. Nevertheless, I will upload two saves that I have.

It’s funny, but I recently lost to Deidre Aire. About a hundred archers and 4 inquisitors survived. But Aire was lucky with the morale and the terrain. She managed to quickly eliminate the vampires, and the dragon couldn’t get close to the archers. Moreover, twice in a row, Aire managed to dispel vampirism from the dragons, and the archers dealt 2.5 damage per shot! Leto should almost always win against Ory.

Ory should win almost every time.

I agree that he almost always wins :) But that time, I was almost shocked that I won, it's a pity I didn't make a replay, and I still regret it. I played about half a year ago against a player with a decent rating. Maybe that time, the opponent's mistake was that he got too carried away with teleportation instead of using darkness. Or maybe the player simply underestimated the danger of Ory and played carelessly. After that, I managed to repeat this victory a couple of times, but against weaker players.

You are wrong not to record replays, gentlemen; it is very interesting to watch the battles of your comrades.
I will post a few of my replays (ildaryk, TOHAP, Mister_Twister) and those of my "battle" comrades (diabolic_edict, LAMER82, MrD1986, DOMOVOY).
In order:
1. Deidra Calmaris1980 versus my Axel. A rather interesting matchup; very few players know how to play Deidra against Axel, who is entrenched in defense. However, Deidra has a significant advantage in this matchup.
2. My Dyrael versus Anven-momokl. Here, everything is quite simple; momokl got carried away, believed in his very easy victory, and missed it in the last seconds of the game. This happens quite often in duels, and I want to thank Nival for that.
3. Jalib, controlled by diabolic_edict, versus Iris calmaris1980. A complex replay to analyze. Calmar made a few mistakes that may not be immediately obvious, but they are there. These mistakes were enough for Diabolic to win the duel.
4. Jalib, controlled by Kot-Hyppotam aka LAMER1982, versus Raven DOMOVOY. Lamer was lucky with the resistance artifact on the rakshasas and with the initial lineup; he made almost no mistakes. Domovoy probably didn't immediately notice the resistance on the rakshasas and lost sight of them; Lamer took advantage of this and slowly destroyed the Necromancers. It remains a mystery to me why Domovoy put the ring on the rakshasa :confused:, when a direct attack would have been much cheaper and easier. However, this is an open question, since throwing the ring allows Raven to move back along the line less. Another very important aspect: the most important unit for Raven at the beginning is still the dragons, as they can cover two archmages. They must do this at all costs!
5. Jalib Zub1984 versus my Dyrael again. Jalib played quite well at the end, but in my opinion, he made a couple of mistakes at the end when I moved back with the horns; he raised the mages, but he could have, for example, thrown the hive in front of the mage stack or a crystal or something else. And the formation was, in my opinion, incorrect for Jalib; it was better to combine the mages into one stack.
6.7. Here, Iris is against her natural anti-heroes, Orson and Leto.
8. My favorite hero, Axel, versus Ib. I liked the game because, despite the fact that it was drawn out, it was interesting until the very end.
9. Orson noobwie fights my Vitto; to be honest, I don't remember this duel very well. In this matchup, Orson doesn't have as many chances as it seems at first glance. Although I haven't tested this matchup very much. If you play skillfully and luckily with Orson, you can severely beat Vitto.
10. Razazak, controlled by MrD1986, versus Marbas. A rather interesting game turned out. Razazak still defeated Marbas. Apparently, the opponent was confused when the pedantic Denis began to skillfully use his troops to destroy the demon hordes.
11. My Garuna versus Sinith Gevorkyan. The opponent cast Armageddon twice, and the second time, luck was on his side. But even this luck was not enough; the paladins had resistance both times. This was enough for me to have only two paladins left at the end.
12. Well, at the end, a classic. Axel-Vittorio. A very interesting matchup

Whoa!

So much interesting and useful information :smile20:
Huge thanks to everyone!!!
ildaryk, special thanks again for the excellent collection you posted :smile13:

BUT! The requests remain valid - don't forget to save and post interesting/difficult/battles with unexpected outcomes :smile25: . Write about the tactics, maybe you have some interesting observations/thoughts.
Based on your new posts, I've added updates to the counter list (Garun and Deidre).

You guys are missing out by not posting replays, it's really interesting to see the feats of your comrades.

2. My Dyraelle vs. Anven-momokl. Here, everything is quite simple; Momokl got carried away, believed in his very easy victory, and missed it in the last seconds of the game. This happens quite often in duels, so a huge thank you to Nival)

I agree.
I'm posting 2 of my battles with Ravenna against Talib. In my opinion, Ravenna has a good chance of winning. However, the first time (when I thought it was done), everything turned out a little differently (see the end of the battle). It's all about the magic mirror :smile51:
In the next battle, I was more careful and still defeated Talib :smile16: .

Playing as Helm, I was mercilessly defeated by Garun; I wasn't playing very well (no replay), but I thought this guy was simply unbeatable, so I played relaxed and was punished for it :smile34:

P.S. Here's something else I remembered. A couple of times during a duel, a message popped up saying that I was disconnected from the server, but the battle continued until victory. However, after the duel ended, I was kicked out not into the duel channel, but into the "network game" section. I.e., I had to enter the password and log in again. How often does this happen, and what is it? Is the opponent's rating counted in case of victory (because he might think that I just disconnected in the middle of the battle.... I think this is generally unfair to the opponent)?

I don't see a better counter-hero against Iris than Deirdre. You can win this matchup with Deirdre without much skill or effort.

Here's a replay where Deirdre easily defeats Iris without any difficulty. There's a certain pattern of Deirdre's moves that you need to know. Roughly: wait with your troops until the griffons take off, then use Banshee's Cry, mass speed, mass curse, then vampire on the dragons, and if necessary, berserk on the armored units and another vampire on the dragons if needed - that's the gist of it.
But of course, Irina has almost no chance.

Has anyone defeated Helmar Jalibom? If so, could you share the replay?

Has anyone beaten Helm with Jaleel? If possible, a replay

Let's try right now, I'm Jaleel :)

Just won with Hagesh against Helm.
Sorry, Mongol, for not admitting I'm from HW ;)

Greetings, absolutely!

sorry Mongol that I didn't admit I'm from ХВ ;)

Alex_R, it's fine :D. I suspected it was you anyway, since the chance of that nickname coinciding both here and on Ubi is very small.
Though there is a Mongol on Ubi too, but that's not me :D, when I registered the nickname was already taken :o
And it's clear from the game that a battle veteran is thrashing my Helm :smile17:
I played terribly; the first time I lost Helm to an orc I thought it was an accident. But orcs counter dwarves, and by a large margin (at least in my case). Another reason is that I don't know this race well (I haven't played as orcs in the fifth game yet) and don't know their strengths and weaknesses. I play equally badly both as and against orcs.
Dwarf vs orc battles turn out to be drawn out, terribly tedious. That's understandable, two thick-skinned races, one strong on offense, the other on defense. And towards the end I was honestly slacking off, just wanting to be killed quickly (and if I hadn't slacked off, I'd have gotten killed anyway ;) ). In short, I don't like orcs (I just don't know how to cook them :D ).

2 questions (I'll repeat one):

1. How proper is it when a player (the opponent) disconnects when the outcome of the battle becomes clear? Is that correct? It personally bothers me, it's kind of not cool (heh) (especially when they silently take it and on my turn — bam, disconnect). It's not a connection break, since I create the game and they immediately rejoin to play with me.
I myself finish the game using auto-combat when I've already lost. Or I say I surrender and flee with the other player's consent. Well, disconnects happen too, of course.

2. Who is a Razzak and what do you do with him? A mage without magic... I can't figure out how to play him correctly? It's clear that 70 golems, 280 gremlins... but... but... I lose to them :smile33: .

Happy upcoming holidays to everyone in advance, have an excellent rest during the festivities!!! :smile54:
I'll show up and keep bothering you with questions only after the 11th :)

2. Who is Razazak and what are his strengths? A mage without magic... I can't figure out how to play him properly. I understand that he uses 70 golems and 280 gremlins, but... but... I keep losing to them :smile33:.

Razazak is a mage, specializing in golems... He is usually countered by other mages like Sinistar, Dyraell, Errin, and Marbas.
In general, he has room for maneuvering and for initial deployment.
Depending on the available miniatures and the opponent's hero, there are different options for how to deploy and divide the troops.
Sometimes you need to make 3+3+3 mages in a stack, or 7+1+1.
You can leave the gremlins in 2 stacks, or you can combine them.
It's definitely not necessary to divide the golems, nor the Thunderbirds.
Razazak's advantages are his high-initiative troops + huge morale, especially the golems due to special skills from logistics and leadership + artifacts that boost initiative, which often lead to high morale (which is generally illogical and unusual). And of course, the teleportation magic with the "surprise attack" ability is powerful!
There are also different strategies.
Either teleport the golems into the enemy's ranks, or the Thunderbirds as far as possible from the main body of the opponent's troops, but at the same time, it is desirable that there is a direct line of sight.
And of course, you need to pay attention to the turn order... for example, it is not beneficial to teleport if the unit is supposed to move literally right after the hero, and conversely, it is effective to teleport if the unit moved before the hero.
For the iron golems and Thunderbirds, the mage needs to cast "Punishment," and also make sure that the gremlins restore as many golems as possible while the gremlins are still alive.
Towards the end of the battle, sacrificing miniatures will be useful...
It restores a good amount of the unit's health + pushes the hero back a short distance in the turn order, so you can make about 3-4 sacrifices in the space of a full turn of the enemy hero, or sometimes to shift the initiative for the most effective teleport.

Yesterday, I played as Axel against Vittorio and Iris. Here are the results:smile05:




Please point out my mistakes.

Yesterday, I played as Axel against Vittorio and Iris. Here are the results:smile05:

Please point out my mistakes.

It's difficult to talk about your mistakes when every move is a mistake, both on one side and the other.

Axel vs. Vittorio. If you're playing as Axel, the first move should definitely be a mass evasion, followed by prayer, and then surveillance on the paladins, if Vittorio plays correctly. Then, it's better to attack the griffins with the paladins first, otherwise it will be almost impossible to defeat them later. And in this matchup, there are many small nuances, like placing as many troops as possible near the lat warriors during the initial setup, because they have high shield. And it's also good to always keep the lat warriors together with the paladins and other troops. It's quite funny when a group of Axel's archers runs parallel to the lat warriors. It looks quite ridiculous, but it happens quite often.

Axel vs. Iris. Here, with the paladins, the first move should either be to wait or move two squares, while all troops form a gap in front of the crossbowmen. And the crossbowmen should move away from the diving griffins, if you have time. And in general, the paladins and archers shouldn't attack Iris's lat warriors and peasants (otherwise they will be defeated). And on the second move, the paladins should attack the arriving griffins. As Axel, the first move can be a general evasion again, general divine power (or vice versa), prayer, surveillance, and a direct attack with Axel is also welcome (lowering morale). After the divine power runs out, use general divine power again.

That's all, I think.

Guys, if you're posting a replay, please write who you played against. It's easier to identify mistakes and it's just more convenient