Round table — Online Tournaments

КостяN

17 years ago

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By the way, here's an example from real life – something small, but annoying: I attack a group of neutral gremlins in the snow with an army from the Tower faction. There are about 40 blue ones, but I have the same number in one stack, and I initiated the attack :D – why do these guys shoot first?? – where is the justice?

In reply to КостяN

Wlk777

17 years ago

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KostyaN

By the way, here's an example from real life – something small, but annoying: I attack a horde of ordinary neutral gremlins with a Tower army in the snow; there are, of course, about 40 blue ones, but I have the same number in one stack, and I attacked: D – why do these bastards shoot first???:mad: – where is the justice?

Either you described something incorrectly, or it's a bug. Under normal circumstances, this shouldn't happen. :rolleyes:

Added 4 minutes later

SEM_56

Sometimes, both opponents have a tactic, but when attacking: sometimes the tactic works, and you arrange your troops, and sometimes the battle starts immediately!!!

Explain this.

Good Lord, have you never read what I write? :confused: I almost know this phrase by heart..."in the tactical phase, the hero with the higher "tactics" skill gets the opportunity to arrange his troops before the start of the battle." It's strange, such an experienced player doesn't know such elementary things...:confused:

In reply to КостяN

Wicc

17 years ago

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KostyaN

By the way, here's an example from life – something small, but annoying: I attack a horde of ordinary neutral gremlins with a Tower army in the snow. There are, of course, about 40 blue ones, but I have the same number in my first stack, and I attacked:D – why do these bastards shoot first???:mad: – where is the justice?

Because you had gargoyles, and they attacked first. And when the speeds are equal, the one who made the last move is taken into account first – the right to the next move is given to their opponent.

Therefore, when attacking small ranged units with the speed of gremlins, it makes sense to attack without gargoyles at all – for the first move. And without golems – for the first move in the 2nd round.

A simple example – you attack with 2 squads of 40 units against 2 squads of 20 units. The first shot is yours – you hit the upper stack, and it becomes much smaller (depending on the parameters and the presence of archery). The second shot is from the first stack of neutrals – it shoots and kills a few of your units. The third shot is yours – you hit the lower stack. The fourth shot is from them – the defeated lower stack also kills some of your units, but not many. The second round – the first move is again yours, and you finish them off.

But if you attack with your entire army, the units will line up in one stack, move before your units, and then really hit your last units...

SEM_56

17 years ago

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Good lord, have you not read what I wrote even once? I almost know this phrase by heart: "In the tactical phase, the hero with a higher 'tactics' skill has the opportunity to arrange their troops before the battle begins." It's strange that such an experienced player doesn't know such elementary things... I know this point, but here's the catch: Both rivals have an expert in tactics! The opponent attacks me, and I'm in the Castle. He has angels, and I do too, but I also have pegasi, and due to the grass bonus, both angels and pegasi have 13 speed.... The opponent has the first move, as he is attacking. But I separate 2 pegasi units... Tactics don't work for either player; no one arranges their troops before the battle, and the opponent goes first!!! Isn't there a speed priority in battle? And given the large number of creatures of the same level, is the order of unit turns determined? I have more units on my side; is it really just about who attacks first?

In reply to SEM_56

Дубровин Павел

17 years ago

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SEM_56

I have a numerical advantage in units, could it be that the only factor is who attacks first???

That's right, because he attacked first, so he gets to move, assuming they have the same speed, of course.

In reply to SEM_56

LeBron

17 years ago

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of course :) when speeds are equal, the attacking side always has priority – whether you deploy 2 units or 7, it doesn't matter ;)

In reply to SEM_56

Dirty_Player

17 years ago

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SEM_56

I have a numerical advantage, could it really just be about who attacks first?

Here's the deal.
Both have an "Expert Tactics" skill, which means neither has any tactics.
That's point one. Second:
The monster's level has no bearing on determining turn order. With equal speed, in the first round, the attacker goes first, and those units closer to the first slot go earlier.

Are these such "subtleties" that not everyone knows yet?

In reply to SEM_56

Wlk777

17 years ago

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SEM_56

Good Lord, have you not read what I wrote even once? I almost know this phrase by heart... "In the tactical phase, the hero with the higher 'Tactics' skill gets the opportunity to arrange their troops before the battle begins." It's strange that such an experienced player doesn't know such elementary things...

I know this, but here's the catch:
Both rivals have an expert in Tactics!
The opponent attacks me, and I'm in the castle. He has an Angel, and I do too, but I also have Pegasi, and due to the bonus from the terrain, both the Angels and Pegasi have 13 speed....
The opponent has the first turn because he is attacking. But I separate 2 single Pegasi...
Tactics don't work for either player; no one arranges their troops before the battle, and the opponent goes first!!!
Isn't there a speed priority in battle?
And given the large number of creatures of the same level, the order of turns for the units is determined!!

I have more units, so is it really just about who attacks first???

Levels don't matter. If the speed is the same, the attacker goes first. This has already been discussed.

SEM_56

17 years ago

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Yes, we know, of course, but the nuances were bothering us...
Thank you for the clarification.

In reply to Wlk777

Дубровин Павел

17 years ago

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It should be remembered that in battles against neutrals, you should protect the fragile Archers with heavily armored infantry, provided you are fighting against non-ranged creatures. If you start with 24 Heavy Crossbows, 30 Pikemen, and troops from a third Hero, surround the Archers. For example, divide one of your melee units into three equal stacks (or form two stacks if you have two-tile creatures in your army), preventing the neutrals from depriving the Archers of their shots. Don't forget that commanding with "Defense" increases your defense skill, making it more difficult for neutrals to reach your tasty Archers. Single units, depending on the difficulty of the battle, are either grouped together, covering their melee stacks from neutral attacks, or they draw neutral fire onto themselves, or they retaliate against neutrals, or they alternate between the above combinations.

In reply to Дубровин Павел

Wlk777

17 years ago

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Dubrovin Pavel

Don't forget that in battles against neutrals, you should protect your fragile Archers with tough infantry, provided you are fighting against non-ranged creatures.

If you had 24 Heavy Crossbowmen, 30 Pikemen, and troops from your third hero at the start, surround the Archers. For example, divide one of your melee units into three equal stacks (or form two stacks if you have two-tile creatures in your army), preventing the neutrals from depriving the Archers of their shots.
Remember that when using the "Defense" command, your defense skill increases, making it more difficult for neutrals to reach your tasty Archers.
Units of level 1, depending on the difficulty of the battle, are either grouped together, shielding their melee stacks from neutral attacks, or they draw the fire of the neutrals, or they counterattack the neutrals, or they alternate the above combinations.

And how fun it can be in the early days to defeat, say, 80 upgraded zombies with an army of 22 Lizards, 30 Gnolls, and 1 Fly! The arrows run out, but otherwise, you could probably kill an infinite number of them

In reply to Wlk777

LeBron

17 years ago

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The question is very important – when there are few archers, you need to accurately calculate the damage and plan so that it will be easier to finish them off in melee combat later. For example, 12 Lizard Archers will clearly not be enough for 80 zombies, so we shoot at each stack twice :) It is much easier to finish off 6 stacks of 4-5 zombies than 3 stacks of 12 zombies.

Wicc

17 years ago

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If the Lizardmen are already built, sometimes it makes sense to upgrade them on the very first turn – in addition to +1 to speed and +40% damage, it also doubles the number of arrows. People say that Vistan in The Restoration of Erathia could clear the hardest Dwarf maps on day 111.

In reply to LeBron

Alex_R

17 years ago

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LeBron

12 Lizardmen are clearly not enough.

Unless, of course, you're playing as Orrin.
I recently played as him in a Tower map, and 6 stacks of 14 zombies worked great, even though it wasn't even 100 Golems – more like 54, and they only had 8 attacks.

Wicc

People say that Wistan can clear the hardest Dwarf Strongholds on level 111 in TE.

Well, maybe in TE, because in SoD it's only theoretically possible.
Let's say you have around 25-30 Lizardmen (which is very lucky for SoD).
They'll deal 5-6 damage per hit * 24 = 120-144.
The rest of the meat (Gnolls) should be enough, but in a 20-round battle, it's too risky to rely on the Dwarfs' morale, and that's only if the Stronghold is on a swamp.

P.S. By the way, Dryads are very tactically useful for the Elves, even with their low speed – they're great for defense. You can use them against fast but weak units, like a horde of Pixies. Attack, but make sure they don't break the morale or attack in the 2nd round and damage the Centaurs or, even worse, the Elves – position them so that they can reach the Dryad, and that's it! :
And there's no need to talk about how useful they are for objects like the Preserve or the Gold Mine – they're exactly the kind of slow meat that you can sacrifice in the field, and when defending a castle, they're even more effective, especially against Swamp creatures and all flying units!
And don't forget about their high hit points. At the start, you have 3 * 55 = 165 (not much worse than 2 Wyverns or 2 Griffins), but if you find a lair or save up on the second week and build a +2 growth and upgrade, you'll get 8 * 65 = 520 HP (guaranteed per week) (more than Battle Unicorns and Gold Dragons!).
And lairs are often given out, so with one lair, you get +4 Dryads (260 HP), for a total of 12 * 65 = 780 HP. It's no wonder that on the second week, you should be able to take any Preserve for the Elves (with a minimum number of lairs and only native units – even Shakti has a worse chance of taking the maximum on the second week!).
It's all IMHO

In reply to Alex_R

Wicc

17 years ago

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Alex_R

Well, maybe in TE, because in SoD it's only theoretical.
Suppose we have about 25-30 lizards (which is very lucky for SoD)
Per shot they will deal roughly 5-6 dwarves *24 = 120-144
The rest of the meat (gnolls) should be enough, but in a fight lasting 20 rounds it's far too critical to rely on the absence of morale for the dwarves, and only if the dwarf horde is on the swamp

Of course, this is only possible with morale disabled. If there is morale, then charging into the maximum stack is suicide.