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Posts from A program for determining luck/morality in Heroes 3!
As Catch already noted, the Bernoulli distribution works well for long battles, so I am submitting my specific proposal for consideration and constructive criticism. It is quite strict regarding hardcore random number generation, but I believe there is no other way.
1. In a round, there should be no more than 1 trigger with morale (luck) +1 and no more than 2 triggers with morale (luck) +2, +3.
2. For any 12, 8, 4 consecutive rounds, there should be no more than one trigger with morale (luck) +1, +2, +3, respectively.
3. Morale and luck can occur simultaneously only once in a battle when both indicators are +3; on units attacking twice and with indicators of +2.
The case of negative morale can be considered separately, but for battles in several rounds, it can be considered zero.
What about checking? Does each player send a step-by-step description of the moves in each battle?
Of course not. If someone wants to cheat with the new restriction, nothing prevented them from doing so before, only with other restrictions (and simply breaking intermediate battles), because not everything is caught even now. But if a cheater takes a high place, they will be asked to provide a walkthrough and a description. So, those who want to cheat will have to aim for mediocre places.
In the VBN tournament, he cheated and made it very clear. If anyone thinks otherwise... let them publicly demonstrate something similar. That is, they come over, sit down at a normal computer, and play normally. Let's say 1000 attempts are more than enough. As for the program and the competitive aspect... it's even sickening to read. In offline mode, the ability to win difficult battles accounts for only 5%. In all my years of experience, I've only encountered a situation where morale was needed once!!! And that was only because I lacked experience at the time. But in reality, it could have been done without it. Reducing battles to constantly relying on morale and luck is the same as using bugs with infinite turns. And everyone agrees that's fair, right? Maybe someone suggested creating an auto-killer? Or even a final-converter, where you give him a starting save, and he immediately kills all the AI opponents and gives you the final save. Then the question is, are those who play like that really PLAYERS? Oh yes, I forgot, they're athletes... or cheaters? Is sports a game played by the rules, or not? So what does changing the program's code have to do with it?
If someone wants to cheat with the new restriction, nothing prevented them from doing so before, only with different restrictions (and simply skipping intermediate battles), because not everything is caught even now.
Right now, we are discussing changes to the rules, aren't we? But what's the point of making rules that will initially contain loopholes for military tricks/cheating: 1. Should the organizer indicate which battles he considers key before the start of the tournament? 2. Does this mean that each intermediate battle should be played without losses by default? 3. Should a "traffic light" system be used for all battles? If yes, then for each non-key battle, it will be necessary to check the "traffic light" to avoid getting extra resources or morale, which could be quite annoying for anyone. If not, then nothing will prevent players from continuing to exploit morale in non-key battles.
And what exactly is a non-key battle? Is a battle against a single Conservator a non-key battle? It depends on what army I'm using to attack!!! The same applies to dividing battles into long/short. And this approach should be applied to each battle.
But if a cheater takes a high place, they will be asked to provide a walkthrough and description. So, those who want to cheat will have to aim for mediocre places.
The 4Sale tournament, organized by Grjaznyy Igrok, gathered 24 participants, which was an excellent result. I also participated in offline tournaments for the first time. Not everyone was fighting for victory in the tournament. Getting into the top ten is also very respectable. Changes to the rules should eliminate the use of cheats in all "competitive groups" and not lead to a decline in interest in the top three.
Regarding the VBN tournament, he's a cheater, and he demonstrated it. If anyone thinks otherwise... let them publicly demonstrate something similar. That is, they come over, sit down at a decent computer, and play normally. Let's say 1000 attempts are more than enough.
Isn't that a bit of an overstatement? What do you mean by a decent computer? A Lexus?:D What kind of proof is needed? As the tournament organizer, I'm very interested in what to do. Should I invalidate his result because he had a "blind spot" on his first turn?Antoshka;189892
And regarding the program and competitive interest... it's even sickening to read. In offline games, the ability to win difficult battles only matters 5%.
So what's the problem then? Not everyone who figures out how to use a program is capable of figuring out where to send which hero!
In the VBN Tournament, he cheated and demonstratively showed it. If anyone thinks otherwise... let them publicly demonstrate something similar. That is, they come over, sit down at a normal computer, and play normally. Let's say 1000 attempts are more than enough.
On what basis did you just publicly accuse the respected vbn of cheating? After all, his save file, as well as the Walkthrough, were first of all verified by the judge and organizer of the Tournament, DirtyPlayer. Maybe you should ask him first, and then listen to vbn's arguments?
1) Respected DirtyPlayer, were you able to reproduce this battle with the Titans (I'm not talking about the Unicorns yet) when checking the save files provided by vbn, and if not, why was the save file counted?
2) Until the respected vbn provides evidence, he cannot be considered a cheater in any case.
3) In light of recent events, I urge the heroic Community to temporarily suspend all Heroes 3 Tournaments on CODe until this unusual situation is clarified and investigated. The rules must be radically changed, and what changes, we will decide together and hopefully come to a compromise solution!
P.S. Antoshka, how many attempts have you made yourself, 1000?:smile42:
Sincerely, VDV_forever
Монца
18 years ago
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What is the chance of a special ability triggering during a retaliatory attack? Is it different from the chance of it triggering during a direct attack?
1) Dear DirtyPlayer, were you able to reproduce this battle with the Titans (I won't even mention the unicorns yet), when checking the save files provided by vbn, and if not, then why was the save considered valid?
I can reproduce the battle with the Titans without any problems! I can even get 6 out of 6 lucky hits! It's not a problem for me. The only question is time, which I really don't have much of! In reality, the first and last lucky hits are completely unnecessary! The same applies to the Conservatory! Only the first blindness needs to trigger, and we'll figure out the rest, as DimaAS already said.
Added 2 minutes later Monza;189907
What is the probability of a special ability triggering during a counterattack? Is it different from the probability of it triggering during a direct attack?
The probability is the same, namely 20%, but in this situation, it doesn't play any role, because it's the first attack!
Added 3 minutes later VDV_forever;189905
P.S. Antoshka, how many attempts did you make yourself, 1000?:smile42:
It doesn't matter at all whether it's 1 attempt or 1000! On one computer, they should match (I'm talking about the unicorn's counterattack) By the way, the damage dealt should also match exactly!
Fireball
18 years ago
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2Senator
Right now, we are discussing changes to the rules, aren't we? But what's the point of creating rules that will initially contain loopholes for military tricks/cheating?
I repeat, most of the rules, and all those concerning combat, contain loopholes. A restriction on morale will certainly be "flawed," but not more "flawed" than everything else.
1. Should the organizer indicate which battles, in his opinion, are key before the start of the tournament?
It's generally not advisable to indicate this. But it's worth deciding for yourself. An experienced player can, with a high degree of probability, suspect obvious cheating even in the final, and detecting it with save files from the end of the game will be close to 100%.
2. Does this mean that all intermediate battles should be played without losses by default?
Even perfect morale and luck will not guarantee a smooth playthrough without losses when playing for speed.
What is a "routine" battle anyway? Is a single conservative unit a "routine" battle? It depends on what army I'm going to use!!! The same applies to dividing battles into long/short ones. And this approach applies to each battle.
If the organizer has at least 1 save from the day (and often not even that is needed), the organizer can easily distinguish a routine battle from a difficult one.
Changes to the rules should eliminate the use of cheats in all "competing groups."
Unfortunately, this is absolutely impossible. But there is, in my opinion, an effective proposal. Currently, the top players are checked, and the organizer makes the selection. It could be made mandatory to check a certain percentage of participants in addition to the winners. The participants to be checked are chosen randomly. It will be scary to cheat because you become a cheater once (just like a traitor). It will be VERY difficult to restore your reputation.
Dirty_Player
18 years ago
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Vanechka;189925
Adjust the threshold for unrealistic battle outcomes to 100% block defense and luck. Precisely 100%. I can explain later how to do this without using external programs or tools; anyone can do it. But what about the rules?
Well, this is a completely different matter... Are you suggesting that the quorum should be like in a race for the leader? And the limitations on using block defense should be introduced purely for humanitarian reasons, so that there aren't situations like this: someone uses Arcomage, and then claims that their block defense worked in every round!
Isn't that a bit of an overstatement? And what do you consider a "normal" game? A Lexus?:D What kind of proof do you need? As the tournament organizer, I'm very interested in what I should do. Should I invalidate his result because he seemed to have a momentary lapse in judgment on his first turn?
Are the provided proofs not sufficient? Or do you need the computer to display the message "Cheater!!"? What, in your opinion, constitutes cheating?
A "normal" game is any standard game with version SoD 3.2 or 4.0, not 3.2 + a patch by Vasya Pupkin. Is there a difference? Or are cheats already being called "skill" in this sandbox? O_o
Well, then what's the problem? Not everyone who figures out how to use a program is capable of calculating where to send which hero!
The problem is that few people want to taint themselves with this program. It seems you're a judge? Reread the rules you wrote in the contest conditions.
Regarding the "loud" statement - if a player violates the rules and records it on video (the very fact that an unlikely situation repeats itself), is that already a scandal? Oh, right, let's downplay it as a scandal. Let him continue to cheat.
Or do you want to repeat the occurrence of all these random events? He can't even do that consistently, as seen in the video.
Maybe he'll come over and show us. Then I'll apologize. But until he does, VBN is a cheater. I don't know if that sounds harsh, but it's a fact, and he's not in a hurry to refute it.
P.S. If you think that's not enough, I suggest you first figure out the technical process behind the occurrence of morale boosts, lucky events, and other "random events."
Vanechka
18 years ago
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Antoshka, let's record all the battles on video and delete anything unnecessary. Would that be more convenient?
Added 7 minutes later
Just in case you're rushing to conclusions, sir?
Added 41 seconds later
Just in case you're rushing to conclusions, sir?
Added 1 minute later
Just in case you're rushing to conclusions, sir?
Isn't the evidence provided sufficient? Or do you need the game to display "Cheater!!" ? What, in your opinion, constitutes cheating?
The arguments presented are very convincing! Yes, a scandal and investigation are brewing! As the tournament organizer, I'm not going to "sweep this under the rug." Since such accusations have been made, especially by reputable players, vbn will simply have to prove his innocence! Antoshka;189930
The problem is that few people will want to "dirty" themselves with this program. It seems you're the judge? Reread the rules you wrote in the contest conditions.
I don't want to "dirty" my hands with this program either, but if it becomes legal, I'll have to learn how to use it.... Or I'll have to stop playing Heroes! Antoshka;189930
Regarding the loud statement - what about the player who violated the rules and recorded it on video (the very fact of repeating an unlikely situation)?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but why would a cheating player record the battle on video? It's like stealing something and sending the video to the police! Is he completely stupid to expose himself like that??? :confused: Antoshka;189930
P.S. If you think this isn't enough, I suggest you first figure out the technical process of morale/luck drops and other "random events."
I perfectly understand how this works! I know that you can repeat random events by selecting time intervals, so I have no questions about the battle with the Titans, but the first instance of the unicorn's blindness is truly a mystery to everyone!
Added after 4 minutes Antoshka;189930
Maybe he'll come visit and show us. Then I'll apologize. I'll just say "sorry, I was wrong..." But until he does that, VBN is a cheater. I don't know if that sounds harsh or not, but it's a fact, and he's not in a hurry to refute it.
Visiting is not an option. vbn is from Ryazan; if you have acquaintances in that city who are gamers that you trust, we can easily arrange a meeting in Ryazan, and all questions can be resolved on the spot!
I perfectly understand how this happens! I know that you can repeat random events by selecting time intervals, so I have no questions about the battle with the titans, but the first unicorn blindness is really a mystery for everyone!
random, or maybe they aren't random? Who can prove it? Someone who knows the combat system well enough? And who knows it? And I looked at the map... all the fuss is about the sapphires... what the heck. Why did he do that? It's a precedent. If it's possible here, then it's possible everywhere. And for now, you are contributing to the creation of this precedent. Don't you think?
random, or maybe they aren't random? Who can prove it? Someone who knows the combat system well enough? And who knows it? And I looked at the map... all the fuss is about the gems... what a mess. Why did he do it? It's a precedent. If it's possible here, then it's possible everywhere. And right now, you are contributing to the creation of this precedent. Don't you think?
Me???? How exactly??? By urging everyone not to jump to conclusions right away?
Kamikaze
18 years ago
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to Antoshka
The thing is, not everyone understands it as clearly as others do. For example, after watching the video, I also asked the winner the same question, phrasing it as "did you spend a long time trying to get the unicorn to blind the griffins three times in a row? And also, did the warlock cast the slow spell twice in a row?", but after his answer, I BELIEVED him (and I really want him to clear his name now). But what Banan said, and now you, really has some basis, especially for people who are not familiar with programming. :(
