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Posts from A program for determining luck/morality in Heroes 3!

Offline tournaments.
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Offline Kamikaze
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Heroecopalka can be compared to any program, like the one AlexSpl is trying to use. Many consider Heroecopalka to be CHEATING. :smile32: And if you think that WE are killing the third game, then you are wrong. It was probably killed in advance, even before the creators made it. Don't worry, we will all adapt, or switch to THAT, or something else will happen. It turns out that there are a lot of pessimists gathered here.

PS: CyberB writes very beautifully and eloquently, and there is meaning in his words. But to accuse Vitalik of cheating, excuse me, to hint at it, plus to belittle the most beautiful victories in very difficult battles, in the opinion of most players, this is rudeness.

Sincerely, Kamikaze!

Индивидуальный и клановый рейтинги Heroes World
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Dirty_Player;189616

If there’s a path through zombies that need to be hit with a ballista, and without it, you can’t achieve the best result, then those who want to win are obliged to hit them with a ballista or not play on this map at all. Most players choose the second option, and they are right!
I was talking about the difference in the number of units. What difference does it make to eliminate 100 zombies on day 1 or 1,000? That’s how you save time!
"Если свет который во мне есть тьма, то какова тогда тьма?"

Ушел в Аллоды Онлайн!:)
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Offline DmitriyAS
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If VBN shares the secret of how to make griffins become blinded by unicorns in response to their first attack, I will be able to replicate the rest within a month. Therefore, let's not jump to conclusions prematurely, but simply wait for clarification.
DmitriyAS

Кто сильнее или шаблон для сравнения городов по силе.
Различие офф-лайна в Heroes II и Heroes III.
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Offline VDV_forever
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AlexSpl


About morale in Heroes.

Yesterday, I analyzed the disassembled executable hmm2pl.exe (v2.1, Gold edition from Buka). Here are the results:

1) At the beginning of the battle, a certain pseudo-random number is generated (it probably depends on the qualitative and quantitative composition of the army, the distribution of stacks in slots, etc.). This number does not depend on the timer and is stored in the same address throughout the battle! Then, it changes during the battle, but only as a result of arithmetic and logical operations (and, or, shl, etc.). That is, if you repeat the same moves (actions), the morale picture will always be the same, which allows you to record a "notation" of the game (similar to chess).

AlexSpl;189276

About morale in Heroes III...
I conducted an analysis. Here's what I found:

1) The condition for morale to trigger is the same: mod(R, 24) + 1 <= m (in this case, m is the morale of the unit);

2) R is a pseudo-random number that does not directly depend on the timer, but the "delay" theory IS TRUE! Let me explain: the number R constantly changes in a certain cycle, even if the player does nothing. Furthermore, R changes quite quickly, but unevenly, in jerks. An interesting observation: the rate of change of the number R drops to one per second (approximately, of course) if you view information about the unit (another confirmation that this number changes in the animation cycle). Sometimes, R does not change at all for a second or two...

3) Conclusion: predicting the triggering of morale in Heroes 3, IMHO, is practically impossible.

Therefore, it is quite possible to achieve the triggering of morale (and, possibly, luck) for each of your units without changing the game structure. There is much to think about...

Could you conduct a similar analysis for Heroes 1? I would be extremely grateful.:smile24:

P.S. As I wrote above (posts #452, #454), the triggering of morale and luck is regulated (I would like to hear the opinion of a programmer), but in light of recent events, I will not be surprised by anything anymore.

Sincerely, VDV_forever
Единый справочник по Героям Меча и Магии

ТУРНИРЫ ПО ГЕРОЯМ 1!:smile13:
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Perpolken;189746
Hello everyone! I think I'll share my thoughts.

First of all, Heroes 3 won't die!
This isn't a nuclear explosion, but another revolution, after which life will become easier for us.
The main thing is not to fight against this program, but to accept it just as we accepted the "hero digger" and "tree chopper." All these programs make our lives easier.

The "hero digger" and "ballista killer" are possible, but this program, by excluding the very possibility of morale appearing, is different! And it shouldn't be considered cheating! What are you looking at!
"Если свет который во мне есть тьма, то какова тогда тьма?"

Ушел в Аллоды Онлайн!:)
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Offline Catch
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Kamikaze;189750
to Catch

Heroekopalku can be compared to any program, like the one AlexSpl is trying to upload. Many consider Heroekopalku to be CHEATING. :smile32: And if you think that WE are killing the third game, then you are wrong. It was probably killed in advance, even by the creators. Don't worry, we will all adapt, or switch to THAT, or something else will happen. It turns out that there are a lot of pessimists gathered here.
The game developers simply didn't anticipate that tournaments would be held on it, and that some players, in pursuit of victory, would create programs that completely destroy the gameplay.
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Offline Dirty_Player
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Catch;189764
The game developers simply didn't anticipate that tournaments would be held, and that some players, in their pursuit of victory, would create programs that completely ruin the gameplay.
The creators of chess in India in the 4th century didn't anticipate anything either :D
This is life, this is evolution, and it was inevitable!!!
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Dirty_Player;189766
The creators of chess in India in the 4th century didn't foresee any of this either :D
This is life, this is evolution, and it was inevitable!

But no one is saying that chess was killed by its creators ;)
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Offline Kyle
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to Dirty_Player and Catch: from everything said above, it is clear that nothing better than chess has been invented yet. ;)

So, shall we organize a chess tournament? :D



But seriously:
Catch;189748

Gentlemen, you are really killing the most popular Heroes version.
We, and especially the respected AlexSpl, are not killing the most popular Heroes version; it was killed long ago by its creators when they refused to provide any support for this game. We simply found another bug (and it is indeed a bug) in the SoD. But this bug is so critical for SoD that it is simply impossible to hold tournaments on this version. And it doesn't matter that this bug was found here and now; the main thing is that it was found. If we (or rather, AlexSpl) hadn't found it, someone else would have, but the meaning of this would not have changed.

I see the following way out of this situation: all tournaments should be moved to TE. Although I was one of the main opponents of introducing TE on this portal, life shows that there is no way to avoid it, because only there can this bug with morale and luck be eliminated.

I hope for your understanding.
Sincerely.
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Offline Nzol
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Kamikaze;189750
to Catch

The hero-digger can be compared to any program, like the one AlexSpl is trying to upload. Many consider the hero-digger to be CHEATING. :smile32:
Sincerely, Kamikaze!

Well, I hope you at least understand that the difference between these programs is huge.
And it somehow looks even absurd to explain this to someone who doesn't understand. :confused:
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Kyle;189775
We just found another bug (and it is indeed a bug) in the game.

What bug are we talking about? Almost every computer game has these kinds of "bugs." Could you use this bug without any external programs? Yes, maybe, after a month of saving and loading, you could manage to level up your entire army. But after that, you definitely wouldn't do it again. But then someone creates a program, and that's it. The gameplay is completely changed. The game is ruined. Everyone uses the program that allows them to win almost any battle without using their brains.
Come on, how do you not understand? :confused: Let me write a program that allows a demon to one-shot 1000 Imps, and then I'll say, "Look, I found a bug in Heroes 3, because how can a demon not be able to kill an Imp?" It's the same thing.
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Offline fanat
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Well, I was suggesting the same thing about this "hero-killing" feature! No one checked what would happen after, say, 10,000 downloads. Maybe a battle would actually be won, and I could sleep soundly in the meantime. There you have it – real-time savings.
"Если свет который во мне есть тьма, то какова тогда тьма?"

Ушел в Аллоды Онлайн!:)
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Offline Kyle
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Catch;189781
What bug are we talking about? Almost every computer game has such "bugs." Could you use this bug without any external program?
Yes, you can, but it will take more time.
Catch;189781
Yes, maybe in a month of saving and loading, you could achieve demoralizing your entire army. But after that, you definitely wouldn't do it again.
Hmm, but many people do. Apparently, a "month of saving and loading" doesn't stop them.
Catch;189781
But then they create a program, and that's it. The Gameplay is completely changed. The game is ruined. Everyone uses the program that allows them to win almost any battle without using their brains.
And in what way is the Gameplay changed? The program just suggests whether luck/morale will be present at a given moment or not.
There is no interference with the game. You can do the same thing without the program.

Catch;189781
Dude, how do you not understand? :confused: Let me write a program that will make an imp kill 1000 Lazurites with one hit, and I'll say, "I've found a bug in Might and Magic III, because it's unheard of that an imp can't kill a Lazurite." It's the same thing.
It's not the same thing. You want to write a game that will change the game's structures. The "morale" program doesn't do anything like that; it just reads the morale/luck value.

By the way, it's also possible to write a similar program for Might and Magic II. It will be less effective, but online, before a unit's turn, it will definitely tell you whether morale/luck will be present or not, and that's already worth a lot. ;)
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Offline vbn
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cyberB;189637
I remained silent for a long time, gathering opinions from offline players I know. Most of those I wanted to ask haven't responded yet, but the general opinion is clear.
I won't speculate now whether vbn hacked the game or if he's a genius at "delays and luck": 3 out of 3 times, the unicorns were blinded (even though on three different versions of the game + three operating systems + several executables, I couldn't even come close to achieving this, even with all other moves being identical, including the companion's actions), plus morale and luck every other time + always the right spells for the mages. Or 5 out of 6 times, luck for the snipers in a battle with titans. Plus, achieving the situation again to record a video (and it was mentioned in the thread that a staged recording was made after the playthrough).
I'll say this: in the Conservatory, I didn't even need to generate anything; the first half of the battle played out on its own. (That's why I didn't even consider other ways to defeat the griffins - using the Mage's Slow spell, using Müllich or Grindan, using the Royal Griffin for the first move, etc.) Then I had to create a battle map. Fortunately, repeating the same steps in the battle resulted in the exact same situation as during the game, as during the video recording, and as now. This happened under Windows 2000 SP 4.
By the way, look at the date the saves were created. The save before the Conservatory battle is 07/03, after the battle is 07/03, the save before the battle with the titans is 07/04, after the battle is 07/04. The next saves are dated 07/10.
cyberB;189680
that without knowing the mechanism of luck (delays), you can look for the coveted numbers 4.5; 8.5; 12.5 (or something like that) in the code.
P.S. And don't prepare a tirade in your head about "you're just making things up!". I'm considering a hypothetical situation and seeing a way to hack. The situation perfectly correlates with the video.
If you're going to look, look for 100/20=4.1666...; 100/12=8.3333; 100/8=12.5000. It will be more reliable, I think.
Senatоr;189705
And who was the first to decide to start a public discussion about morality?
Yes, I turned out to be more shortsighted than ever, and this is what it led to... I'm disappointed. However, many say that a revolution was inevitable sooner or later.
Senatоr;189705
And who was the first to decide to start a public discussion about morality? Having certain knowledge, it is not necessary to use additional programs.
I'll say more: having certain knowledge, it is not necessary to use this knowledge itself. And I wrote that I didn't use this knowledge because it wasn't needed [generating luck or morale using delays].
cyberB;189692
... in that battle, the griffins went first, there are no delays. The unicorns' response - no delays. So, regardless of the animation speed, the version of Heroes, etc., the griffins always go first, and their response is also always the same (with or without blinding). Exactly the same with morale.
That's why I tested this situation in every possible way (combined operating systems, versions of Heroes, and executables). And I never had blinding. Those who, at my request, checked, didn't either.
I understand you. Evidence and confirmation will be provided.
cyberB;189692
Yes, I forgot to add. And all this is happening against the backdrop of the maxim cultivated here: "If something is theoretically possible, then I'll go into the code and do the same, only faster" (this has appeared many times in this thread).
Personally, this thought is extremely unnatural to me. Although logically everything is correct, I don't approve of changing the game's structure in any way or for any reason. But studying its [structure] is a useful thing.
Клан Homo homini

Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Charity never faileth...
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Offline Senatоr
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After all, what actually happened?

This program simplified the offline mode. And no catastrophe occurred for the third game. If before, only a few people knew about the tricks for getting morale and luck, now the algorithm has become widely known. Is the key to a high result in a tournament really a month of real time to generate the right "battle map"? It is much more important and interesting to come up with the right unit placement before the battle, the moves in the battle itself, strategies for upgrading heroes, and their advancement on the map. I think this is the essence of the offline mode.

What do hero-farming, ballista-killing, and the "morale traffic light" have in common? All these programs simplify routine and uninteresting actions that take up a lot of real time.

Battles in canned scenarios and with titans – in my opinion, this is not where the highlight of completing a given map lies. With the "morale traffic light," now everyone can win such battles (albeit with different losses). BUT, figuring out how to make the titans circle around – that's where true imagination comes into play! And at the same time, destroying all the ships and nagabanks on the water with one centaur (from DmitriyAS's walkthrough). That's a sign of skill, not forcing morale in battles!

And in this regard, the creation of a program for catching BDs only evokes positive feelings. Now, more attention can be paid to thinking about the strategy for completing the map, rather than tedious reloads. And the choice is up to the organizers of offline tournaments and map creators: either increase the strength of the monsters on the map fourfold, or cover everything with cursed land. And it will still be possible to play offline with interest.

Changing the structure of the game? This was possible even before. Those who wanted to probably used it. The only method of fighting this is to require a detailed description of the walkthrough. Only now, it will not be possible to cheat with BDs and luck. And this is a big plus for the offline mode. So, I think nothing terrible has happened, and the third game's offline mode will continue to thrive. :smile01:

As for online... nothing has changed either. You should still only play with those you don't doubt.
SoD 3.2, 2SM4d(3), Full random
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