DISCUSSIONS on “Rules for online games in HoMM3 and formulas for calculating player rating.” — Online Tournaments

Mizrael

3/17/2008 11:14 AM UTC

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If the box is empty, and you have the wisdom of an expert, then it means you already have all the magic from it ;) For example, the entire first level. Regarding the topic: a guild is a permanent object, while Pandora is a one-time event and, in my opinion, shouldn't have the right to grant the ability to "defer" its use.

In reply to Dreamcatcher

invisible

3/17/2008 11:21 AM UTC

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There have been cases when even with expert Wisdom the box turned out to be empty, and I don’t even know what I missed out on

:eek: This has never happened to me. And what else can they give that isn’t magic, and that would turn out to be empty?!

You just need to clearly distinguish what exactly and which box allows. If it contains a specific school — you are allowed to use scrolls of any level from that same school. If it’s a specific level — then scrolls of any school of that level.

That’s exactly what I meant.

The only tricky case is when a hero with basic Wisdom ate an empty box — what was there, level 4 or level 5? In short, we need to think it over...

I meant that you can use the given scroll if you are 100% sure that you received that particular spell from the Pandora’s Box. In most cases, it’s unclear without Wisdom or with basic Wisdom. But nevertheless, such cases are possible.
I understand that it would be too convoluted if we tried to formulate a corresponding clause in the rules, but it’s such a shame when you lack Wisdom, you defeat hordes or packs of powerful monsters, lose a lot of troops, and end up with diddly squat. It’s clear that the very word "Pandora" speaks for itself, but as Dreamcatcher rightly noted, if you have the scroll, you don’t need Wisdom — you just need to build the appropriate Mage Guild.
p.s. I needed to bump the thread, and this opportunity came up =)

Я ламер и играть не умею, нах!:smile33:

In reply to invisible

Dirty_Player

3/17/2008 1:17 PM UTC

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I've had instances where, even on expert difficulty, the Wisdom box turned out to be empty, and I didn't even know what I had missed.

It happened to me too...
Let's imagine a situation: a hero without Wisdom finds an empty Pandora's Box. Then, they gain Wisdom and use a scroll with Dimension Door, claiming that there was a fifth-level item inside, and then you have to prove what was there and what wasn't...

In reply to Dirty_Player

invisible

3/17/2008 1:38 PM UTC

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That's happened to me too...
Imagine a situation: a hero without Wisdom finds an empty Pandora's box. Then they max out Wisdom and use a Dimension Door scroll, claiming that there was a level 5 spell in there—and how do you prove what was actually there or wasn't...

I said:

that this scroll can be used if there is 100% certainty that you received this particular spell from the Pandora's box. In most cases, it's unclear without Wisdom or with basic Wisdom. But nevertheless, such cases are possible.

They give either a certain LEVEL of magic, or all magic of some ELEMENTS. Therefore, it can be logically calculated.
But I'm starting to realize myself that I was a bit too hasty, as this will create many problems, confusion, etc. So let it stay as it is for now. But if anything, we can return to this issue later :)

Я ламер и играть не умею, нах!:smile33:

In reply to invisible

Dirty_Player

3/17/2008 2:09 PM UTC

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invisible;161120

because it will create many problems, confusion, etc.

Well, that's what I meant, to be honest :-)
And I would definitely ban magic from Pandora without first establishing a guild! Just saying.

In reply to Yakudza

RAPER

3/17/2008 2:20 PM UTC

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I would definitely ban the use of Pandora magic until the guild is built. Just saying.

Danu, I think this is going too far. If so, we'll have to build the guild anyway.

играю на уровне AI !!:smile32: ;)

In reply to RAPER

Dirty_Player

3/17/2008 2:23 PM UTC

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RAPER;161129

danu - I think this is going too far... then we'll have to rebuild the guild anyway...

Exactly!! And that's right IMO! So that nothing is free!!!

In reply to Dirty_Player

Wicc

3/18/2008 10:18 AM UTC

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I'm telling you, it's a map bug. The real passages are guarded, but this one seems random. You can't use it. Sorry for the grammar – blame it on the ladies!

I've studied the issue of generator errors when dividing the map into zones. I've gathered a good amount of empirical data on this topic.

So, sometimes passages are created that shouldn't be there. That is, the generator simply forgot to place a rock or another similar obstacle there. This most often happens when it simply can't place that rock, or that rock is removed later when objects need to be placed there.

The most common case is a mine and a descent into the subway. The generator often places them on the edge of a spawn point (mines are almost always like this), right next to obstacles, and then, seeing that there is no room for guards/resource piles, it simply clears the space for them, removing rocks and creating an unintended passage according to the template structure. The latter is just my assumption about the generator's algorithm; perhaps there is another reason, but the fact remains that a very large percentage of buggy passages in Might and Magic 6 are located near mines/teleporters/descents into the subway.

It gets even more interesting – the generator apparently creates roads after generating the map and doesn't distinguish between buggy and non-buggy passages. In a match of the Autumn Cup against Bayazet, we had 3 active (i.e., actively used by us) buggy passages on the map, and all 3 had roads through them. And the "official" passages between zones were somewhere in the back, on rough terrain; I only found them after the game.

Therefore, my opinion is that you can use buggy passages because:
1) In general, it may not be clear whether a passage is buggy or not.
2) There may be no guard on the passage because the opponent or the computer has defeated it.
3) Even if it's buggy, but there's a road through it, it's somehow wrong to force the player to look for a non-buggy passage on rough terrain.
4) The computer doesn't care whether something is buggy or not; it just runs around and gets in the way.

So, if there's no guard, then who cares, we just run through. And borderline situations (i.e., there is a guard, but only 2 screens to the right) are by default resolved in favor of the player.

In CM (Cossacks: European Wars) compared to Might and Magic 6, it's a little easier in the sense that the number of zones per unit area is smaller, and the number of connections is also smaller, so there are fewer bugs. But they have a greater impact, especially bugs with the Global Order.

In reply to Yakudza

Князь

3/21/2008 8:15 AM UTC

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TO EVERYONE! TO EVERYONE! TO EVERYONE!!!! Dear fans of Heroes 3! I want to suggest a radical re-evaluation of YOUR perspective on the rules for 1v1 games played through Hamachi!!! HERE'S WHAT I PROPOSE!!!:>>>>>>>
1) Cancel scrolls altogether! If they interfere with progress, you can take them but not use them (this depends on your honesty).
2) BAN tactics for everyone!!!
3) Fight only with your own units!!! NO FREE WERNS OR ANGELS!!! If they are given, disband them or exchange them for resources.
4) Set a minimum time limit for a turn!!! (1 minute!) (well, 2).
5) Cancel heroes who are LOGISTICIANS and TACTICIANS!
6) Restart ALWAYS if a stone and wood mine are not found within 3 days (if the player agrees to continue without a mine, that is their right).
Please provide criticism with evidence and examples! Thank you all in advance for your attention!!!! All of the above is not an IMPOSITION of rules, but a CONSTRUCTIVE proposal! Perhaps some of our esteemed moderators will correct some of these points! At least on this site!!

In reply to Князь

Dirty_Player

3/21/2008 8:32 AM UTC

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Prince, or maybe ban Utopia and Pandora as well? What did you dislike about tactics and logistics? I don't understand:confused: And are Diplomats and Necromancers normal in your opinion? Maybe you should also disband the skeletons?

In reply to Князь

invisible

3/21/2008 9:33 AM UTC

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Dear Prince. First of all, I want to say that the main points of these rules were written not in one year, but by many (hundreds) of professional players. Therefore, no one will change everything at once, because most players are satisfied with these rules.

1) Cancel scrolls altogether!! If they interfere with the passage, you can take them but not use them.

Regarding the use of scrolls, we have found a way to ensure that randomly finding a good scroll does not give an obvious advantage over the opponent.

Fight only with your own units!!! NO FREE WYVERNS AND ANGELS!!! If they are given, disband them or exchange them for resources.

I would have laughed at these words before, but recently I learned that on some resources, they play exactly like that, for example, the Poles. But: in my opinion and in the opinion of most players on this and other resources, this is uninteresting and meaningless. After all, it's random: someone is lucky with the spawn, - a bunch of hiding places, utopias, and so on, and how can another fight against such a large number of units? In my recent game, I collected half a hundred minotaurs in three weeks - how is this worse than the same half a hundred wyverns or several angels?! Minotaurs breed on their own in hiding places, but you still need to be able to take hives and angel nests without critical losses.

Cancel the LOGISTIC and TACTICIAN heroes!!

Well, I can understand the logistics, but I'm hearing about tacticians for the first time :). Maybe we should also ban attack and defense, and especially expert slow? I'm tired of repeating the same thing: what's wrong with Tazar compared to Kirra?

restart ALWAYS if a stone and wood mine is not found within 3 days (if the player agrees to continue without a mine, it is his right)

According to the current rules, each player has two restarts. They are given precisely for this and for strong blocks, and not for "guessing" a fairy-tale spawn. A wood and ore mine ALWAYS exists on the spawn (at least, I have never had a case where they were not there). You just need to search well ;).

make the time limit for a turn as short as possible!!! (1 minute!)(well, 2)

no comments... The current rules were designed to have as few restrictions as possible. And in the worst case, if they don't suit you and my arguments are unconvincing, then no one forbids you to play according to the rules that you agree on individually with your opponent. There is such a clause in the rules ;)

Я ламер и играть не умею, нах!:smile33:

In reply to Князь

Alex_R

3/21/2008 10:30 AM UTC

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Prince;162426

TO EVERYONE! TO EVERYONE! TO EVERYONE!!!! Dear fans of Heroes 3! I want to suggest that you radically reconsider YOUR point of view on the rules for 1v1 games played through Hamachi!!!

The part highlighted in red is nonsense... because the current rules do not reflect the point of view of everyone – it is the result of many years of work by different players + there is no reason to revise them... But even the current rules don't have that many supporters, and in general, any rules are limitations, and if it's not possible to play in a way where everything is allowed, then there should be several types of rules and, accordingly, tournaments. IMHO, this is more interesting and you won't get stuck on the same thing. I would advise you to focus on creating alternative rules, and the more they differ from the current ones, the greater the chance of attracting supporters... of course, on the condition that the balance is maintained... I ask everyone to note that we currently have a monopoly. The fact that there is no competition does not mean that it is not needed!!!

In reply to Yakudza

Князь

3/21/2008 11:05 AM UTC

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According to the rules of the tournament held in our city, playing as NECROPOLIS and CONFLUENCE is completely prohibited!!! Diplomats and Necromancers should be banned!!!
Invisible:
1) This is not a solution!!! For example: I'm playing as my favorite Swamp faction, and you're playing as Confluence!! I have two Human castles and, let's say, a Barbarian castle nearby. I build all 5 guilds, but there's nothing worthwhile there! I send a group of Fanatics to guard a scroll, and when I take it, there's an explosion!! Or Armageddon!! Or a magical jump!! Notice that you won't find such magic in my other three secondary factions; it simply doesn't exist there!!! And if there are no Utopias on the map and no magic books, then you have to agree that such scrolls give a huge advantage!!
2) Sometimes there are no Utopias at all!! And there are very few hidden resources!! Just rely on your units!!! And why is it considered necessary to fight on the 4th week or the 1st day of the 2nd month?! Fight as you develop!!
3) The thing is, there's always a mine for ore and wood, but sometimes it's in NOVOGORBUNOVO!! And if you've already taken two mandatory restarts, what do you do next??? Give up???!!! Why two restarts???!!!!!!! In my opinion, it's precisely to get a fantastic map spawn so that you can buy something with your second building or second powerful hero!! Or do you want a huge number of free resources and hidden spots like a campfire and a bunch of bastions with hives (which are prohibited in our rules) to appear in your field of vision immediately, plus Utopias and a truckload of Pandora's Boxes!! And a whole library of scrolls on top of that!!!!??? Then you need to develop a NEW map generator!!!!! If you don't want to change the rules!!! Otherwise, it turns out that SOME "Professionals" wrote them, and you all agreed immediately and are forcing others to agree so that they can be included in your table!!! We play among ourselves like this: if there's a Portal of Glory, a sandbox, a Behemoth Lair, etc., right away, then restart immediately!!! If you can't leave the castle, restart!!! If there are no mines, restart, and if the hero is > level 1, restart, and that's it!!
4) And there's another POINT #6!!! I ABSOLUTELY agree with SMOKE that there are certain elements on this site that are not fair!!! Look at the topic that the moderator banned!!! The one called "Ta Kotoraya"!!!!!

In reply to Yakudza

RAPER

3/21/2008 11:27 AM UTC

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But there is another POINT №6 !!! I ABSOLUTELY agree with SMOKE that there are separate elements on this site that are not clean-HANDED !!!! look at the thread that the moderator banned !!!!!!Ta Kotoraya !!!!!

what was that a hint towards???..

______________________________
You understand—as already mentioned above—these rules were not created in one day... and not by one person...
then for several years they were polished by more than a dozen experienced players.. and flaws were found, which were subsequently corrected....
Therefore, I believe that these rules are the most humane and objective.. and I see no point in changing anything here...
about the 1-2 min time it's just funny.... when I first started playing... it also seemed to me that more wasn't needed... now I barely squeeze everything I want to do into 4 minutes......

that's exactly it, there is always an ore and wood mine, but sometimes it's in NOVOGORBUNOVO !!

mines are always there.. they are located near the Castle... another question is that there can be a generator bug... and the path to one or both mines is blocked by some not-so-weak unit protecting something else..
btw. invi what to do in such a case..??..
about the logisticians—fine, I've heard that some ban them.. but why ban TACTICIANS.. this means there won't be a single decent hero in the Dungeon 0o...
At first I also thought—that utopias are evil.. and everything depends on luck—whoever gets more Dragon Utopia wins the game.. but over time I realized—that it is not so...

играю на уровне AI !!:smile32: ;)

In reply to Князь

invisible

3/21/2008 11:45 AM UTC

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1) This is not a solution!!! For example: you play as your favorite Swamp faction, and I play as Conflux!! I have two Castle factions and, let's say, a Barbarian faction nearby!! I built all 5 guilds, but there's nothing good there! I go, and there's a group of Fanatics standing there, guarding a scroll. I take it, and there's an explosion!! Or Armageddon!! Or a magical jump!! Notice that you won't find such magic in my other three secondary factions; it simply isn't there!!! And if there are no Utopia or Pandora's Box artifacts on the map, and no magic books, then you have to agree that such scrolls give a huge advantage!!

These rules imply playing on random maps, where there are almost always Utopia and Pandora's Box artifacts. I've even forgotten when I last built a level 5 town. Why bother if I go to the treasure and get all Air or all Earth creatures? Then I'll have a jump spell, a portal spell, an explosion spell, and so on.

AND IF YOU'VE ALREADY DONE TWO MANDATORY RESTARTS, WHAT DO YOU DO NEXT??? GIVE UP???!!!

Wooden and stone mines are also available in secondary towns. And we mostly play on 160%, so by the time the wood runs out, you can find a mine in a secondary town if you don't have one in your main town.

WHY TWO RESTARTS???!!!!!!! IN MY OPINION, IT'S PRECISELY TO GET A FANTASTIC STARTING LOCATION!!!

Restarts are precisely for regenerating the map in case of a mine block. But many people also use them to get a fantastic starting location.

BUT IT TURNS OUT THAT SOME "PROFESSIONALS" WROTE THESE RULES, AND YOU ALL AGREED IMMEDIATELY AND ARE FORCING OTHERS TO AGREE SO THAT THEY CAN GET INTO YOUR TABLE!!!

No one is forcing anyone here :). In the current rules, almost every aspect of each point has been refined by the PLAYERS THEMSELVES. And to get into the ranking table, it is not necessary to play according to these rules. It is enough to write a correct report and wait for it to be confirmed by your opponent. And it doesn't matter what rules you played by, if you agreed on them with your opponent in advance.
Sometimes I also want to play the way I want. I look for an opponent, agree with him, and play. I might want to play as Necropolis with upgraded Vampires and level up Vidomina. We play, write a report, and the games get into the ranking. So what prevents you from doing the same? Let's play according to YOUR rules? I'm not against it for a change.

If you can't leave the town, restart!!!

That's why we have a restart on the first day.

no mines - restart

That's why we have a restart within 3 days :).

hero >1 level restart

We have that too).

I ABSOLUTELY agree with SMOKE that there are certain elements on this site that are not fair play!!!! Look at the topic that the moderator banned!!! The one about...!!!!!

It's better to be careful with such words :).
As for that case, as I understand the situation, a newbie came to the forum, went to the offline section, read that everyone uses codes for scouting, didn't fully understand, thought it was allowed, and asked that question, thinking that it could also be used in online games.

Я ламер и играть не умею, нах!:smile33: