Posts from Mafia: general discussions.

Read "jump with you".

No, maybe another time, perhaps in Revnomafia.

I saw that Ment submitted an application, and that’s good, because I’m also involved in the Mafia game and might miss something, but overall, I’m not leaving the forum. If something needs to be closed/opened/moved, write to me in a private message here, because out of all the messengers, I can only be reached on VKontakte and occasionally on Skype.

Please post all discussions after the game.

Inspired by today's events. I didn't read the newspaper and didn't know who to support, but it was fun.



Master, and what will you do to me? I'm not participating in the game.

Alright, let's watch the next one from the front rows.

Forget about getting involved. I’d rather just watch from the sidelines. Otherwise, they might pin something on me for no reason.

I also checked in today, out of curiosity, and read a few of the latest pages from the current day. It was surprisingly amusing to watch.

You said it was pointless to revive the mafia.

Hey guys, I got such an adrenaline rush yesterday, it was awesome!

Added 9 hours and 44 minutes later
Morning, <3

Mafia on Hv. Mafia on Hv never changes.

Hello, sunshine!

For personal reasons and due to a certain amount of nostalgia, I've been watching the recent games. And here is a brief illustration of the reason that prompted me to write something:

But alright, jokes aside, I want to go over this topic in more detail. Only please keep in mind that my words do not claim to be the ultimate truth, are not mandatory to adopt, and are evaluative and recommendatory in nature.

 

So, Tox. I gave you a minus in the DB for some post and I want to explain why. First of all, let me say that I understand your behavior, at least partially. But one should separate intentions from actions. You need to understand that the Mafia format on ХВ differs from socio-active IRL Mafias. The important emphasis here is not on emotional squabbles (especially considering the number of introverts in the thread), but on analysis and the logic of solving clues. Your behavior, if we disregard the substances you put into yourself for some reason, is often pseudo-active in this context, and sometimes even somewhat aggressive toward the personal space of other players. If in IRL Mafia, forming a daytime "link" of players — regardless of whether they are townies or mafia — is an assertion of "opinion leaders" to gain a credit of trust for further play, then on ХВ it is just another suspicious irritant for everyone who doesn't simply accept commands from the outside. It is impossible to control town roles without proving your affiliation with the town via the newspaper, executions, and analytics. I used to be mistaken myself when I imagined some kind of authority that should grant a credit of trust — no, only facts should be in play, once again facts, or a strong consistent analysis of those same facts.

As for the topic of modkilling — this is the wrong way to play. Even in theory. I'll provide a relative example-comparison:

A Formula 1 race is underway. Two drivers from a hypothetical "Ferrari" team hold the leading positions. Such a layout would greatly raise the team's rating. But then a mechanic notices some malfunctions in one of the cars; fixing them at the pit stop will guaranteedly push the driver down to a lower position. And the mechanic, in his best intentions, throws himself under another team's car. Death, race stoppage, etc. But is such an action realistic and is it worth the result?

In Mafia, the same question arises — is even a hint of a suicidal modkill worth the result? Theoretically, emotionally — perhaps it is, and that "perhaps" stands especially if you ignore any side effects. However, in practice, such actions not only destroy the logic of the game, they deprive players of pleasure and the desire to continue playing across many parameters. And this, it seems to me, is much more important. Therefore, as advice — work on trying to pull yourself together and perform calmer, emotionally neutral analytics instead of panics and hysterics, at least here (if you want to continue participating in games).

And, additionally, any violation of the rules, regardless of the intentions behind it, is a disregard and disrespect for the game and other players.

 

Regarding the general situation with modkills: although I have always been for strict adherence to the rules, in that same adeptus-game I was happy to take advantage of both Tox's modkill and Spir's massive slip-up (yes, I reread it, and now I'm ashamed). Therefore, I want to submit a few suggestions to the rules which are, in my view, important. But first, let me recall the rule itself, from the 30-40 games edition:

11. It is forbidden to reveal your / someone else's role, or its elements, as well as information obtained through them, in public places or among players who are not in the same group as you. The same applies to information about other players. Phrases like "well, and I also know something about him that I can't say" are a violation, regardless of whether you actually know something or are lying. Statements such as: "I checked," "according to my information, which I cannot disclose," "I know for sure" - etc. are forbidden. Unargumented shouts of "he is MAFIA!", "I am Town!" etc. are allowed.
To avoid violating this rule, try to frame your thoughts as assumptions or as IMHO based, for example, on clues or behavior. It is permitted to reference the rules, the Mage Guild, your own posts, or posts of other players, as well as any external sources where you dug up some info via clues.

As can be seen, there are already quite a few restrictions here that promise harsh sanctions for players who failed or chose not to make subtle hints. And, considering what was seen in recent games, I would suggest returning to this wording, adding the following:

1. A modkill during daytime play always ends the day.
2. Upon revealing a role during any discussion, the player's team loses the ability to perform an ND on the night following the modkill.
3. Manipulating threats of a modkill leads directly to a modkill with subsequent effects (points 1 and 2).

Such interpretations were mentioned in the thread by game participants, and I fully support them, as the rules, even if harsh, help form/maintain their own special game format that many have come to like.

And finally, I'll say that while reading the settings, I was quite stunned. I can't recall such a quantity of NDs, abilities, features, and protections in my time. And it seems to me that such overload deprives Mafia of its characteristic analytical meaning. Instead of searching for clues, parsing interpretations, and analyzing everything — there is calculating available roles based on numerous blocks, executions due to incorrect behavior, and the modkill trend.

And although piling on perks locally increases interest in the game for a while, in the long run and overall, such a layout worsens the game. I'll provide conclusions from my own experience:

Maniac. Many players want this role because it offers maximum interest when maneuvering between the main warring Factions. And naturally, every player has at some point dreamed of winning as the Maniac and thereby earning additional respect (at least self-respect). Only the specificity of the role is such that the Maniac is an element of uncertainty in the game. The Maniac is the "Zero" in roulette, one slot among a sea of red and black. The Maniac can be both a help to the Mafia in terms of reducing the town's population and distracting them in their search for clues, as well as a help to the town in destroying the Mafia at night in critical situations (those "useful" maniacs, yes). And the essence of the role lies not in being insanely strong or immediately unkillable/unexecutable, but in the chaos he brings to the ranks of other teams.

Townies without ND. One of the most necessary roles, as it opens up great scope for daytime play, even considering a total absence of information at night. A Townie without ND can always distract negatives with their daytime activity, giving town roles more time to gather information. Moreover, the loss of a Townie without ND will not be critical for the town in the first days. And another important function of this role is the ability of the Mafia to pretend to be Townies without ND. Many forget about this, but the Mafia needs such cover for daytime play. Otherwise, as could be noticed in game №107, all roles are calculated and laid out by blocks.

Based on the above, I want to suggest that future Mage Guilds play with an approximate layout:

3 mafia — only ND kill,
1 maniac — ND kill or deprivation of vote for 1 day,
5 townies without ND,
1 blocker-isolator — ND block-isolate a player (№1 in turn order),
1 checker-shooter — ND status check or killing a player with a confirmed negative status,
1 doctor — ND healing.

with mandatory features such as:

1. Kills for all factions are described identically (at least 1-2 mafia characters must have kill descriptions like the maniac);
2. On the first night, kills from both the maniac and mafia are mandatory;
3. All actions are displayed in the newspaper;
4. Roles have no protections against kills or any special features.

Of course, all this needs to be refined, but I hope the main concept is clear.

 

In conclusion, I want to add something about notes. They are not needed because they are a legalized violation of the rules. Even if you limit the ability to specify target nicknames (today I'm going to Vasya) — it will still be a partial/full reveal. There is a factor of believe-it-or-not, but it doesn't override the total ignoring of the rule about revealing roles. Plus, activity with notes was always on the side of 4-5 players; others didn't really perceive them and subsequently many negatives "took over" the roles of inactive townies through simple cluttering or fancy signatures. Perhaps this element of IRL games was fun, but it quickly became rudimentary.

 

I apologize for the lengthy message. Also, I remind you that everything described is only my personal vision and perception of the situation. You are great for deciding and finding the strength to revive the game.

 

Peace and health to all! 🤟

1. Modkill always ends the day during daytime.
2. When a role is revealed during any discussion, the player's team loses the ability to perform Night Actions on the night following the modkill.
3. Manipulating the threat of a modkill directly leads to a modkill with subsequent effects (points 1 and 2).

If desired, a point regarding participation in the next game can be added, although considering the number of players, it might not be necessary.
But the most important thing for people to remember is that they can also be GMs, and if they treat other people's games this way, no one might sign up for their games in the future, etc.

Regarding the idea that you can "modkill" to give information to a town, I'd like to add:
- Violating the rules isn't really an "either/or" situation. You can't go into a store and steal a loaf of Brunswick sausage because "Well, I didn't take my wallet, nothing, I'll pay a fine if I have to, but I really want sausage right now."
- Even if the ethical side of the issue doesn't concern us, and the benefits really outweigh the drawbacks, you need to understand that in the long run, this kind of behavior is still harmful to the person who is "modkilling" and to the mafia as a whole. People will either lose interest, sanctions will be applied, or the next time you're playing as the mafia, you'll be executed without any hints about your role, or... There are many options, and they're all negative.

But I hope that Toxi has learned from his mistake and won't repeat it.

Regarding the actual punishment for "modkilling," I think Hos went a bit too far. With such harsh sanctions, you'll simply have to end the game in 80% of cases. As it was with Master, I think it was quite fair. The day is closed, the player is sent to the chopping block (the role is not revealed). Although, if the player managed to reveal one of the mafia members to the town through "modkilling"... Well, maybe it should be stricter in that case, yes. Depending on the situation?

Interesting proposals about the mafia format. As far as I remember, ND (no direct information) was given to all roles without exception so that players without it wouldn't lose interest in the game. But we can think about returning to the origins. Only in this format of the game, you really need to try very hard to balance the clues, otherwise it will be bad.

As it was with the Master just now – in my opinion, it was quite fair. The day ends, and the player is put on the chopping block (the role is not revealed).

This way, it’s good for Mafia players who are going to be executed. Something like this happens: "And who will save you, huh?" I think the role should still be revealed. What difference does it make if they execute Humer or… like that?

Added 1 minute ago

Based on the above, I want to suggest that the following GMs play in an approximate setup:

3 Mafia – only night kill,
1 Maniac – night kill or silencing for 1 day,
5 townspeople without night kills,
1 blocker-isolator – night kill to block/isolate a player (No. 1 in the order of turns),
1 checker-shooter – night kill to check the status or kill a player with a checked negative status,
1 doctor – night kill to heal.

with mandatory features such as:

1. Kills for all Factions are described in the same way (at least 1-2 Mafia characters should have a kill description like the Maniac);
2. In the first night, kills from the Maniac and Mafia are mandatory;
3. All actions are displayed in the newspaper;
4. Roles do not have protection from kills or any special features.

Of course, all of this needs to be refined, but I hope the main concept is clear.

Yeah, yeah... The less information for the town, the better, right... Where is the "sarcasm" smiley here?