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Posts from Balanced Units - A minimal balance mod for units
Do you think the Necromancer's upgrade tree is well-balanced? In my opinion, "Grasping Strike" is more effective than "Howl" (first, "Howl" doesn't deal more damage on its own; second, like with the Red Dragon, you need to position yourself correctly to use the ability, and you need to apply the ability before the enemy's next turn – the enemy isn't stupid and will try to move away from the Banshee when they see this setup).
... И древний лес, роскошен и печален, Блистает там воздушностью прогалин. Но между кедров, полных тишиной, Расщелина по склону ниспадала. О, никогда под бледною луной Так пышен не был тот уют лесной...
I would like to thank the author for their work on balancing Heroes 5 and, in particular, for creating this mod for the units. I personally installed it and recommend this mod to all beginners, as the changes are minimal, yet important for balance.
A rather interesting and well-balanced mod. It stands out due to its simplicity; there aren't many changes, but they are well-implemented and relevant. The only thing is that it might be worth slightly increasing the initiative of the Rakshasa and also raising their defense.
I recently returned to Heroes of Might and Magic V. Yes, it has its flaws, but some balance mods have gone so far from the original that it simply becomes uninteresting to play. The tournament mod is almost a completely different game, and you have to learn to play it from scratch. And this mod stands out precisely because of the lack of radical changes.
I've played it a bit. In principle, it's not bad - with some upgrades, there really is a choice, but in some places, one of the upgrades is inexplicably boosted to an imbalanced level, and not the other way around. And there are upgrades that don't fit the concept of the faction.
Greetings to the demons from the warlock maniacs. :)
DemonSD
I've played around with it a bit. In principle, it's not bad - with paired upgrades, there really is a choice, but in some places, one of the upgrades is inexplicably boosted to an imbalanced level, instead of the other way around. And there are upgrades that don't fit the concept of the faction.
Yes, most of the changes in this mod seem logical.
Could you be more specific about the "upgrades that don't fit the concept of the faction"?
I'll say right away that all pairs have become more or less balanced. Next are my complaints:
Crossbowmen - Archers
In my opinion, crossbowmen shouldn't have been changed. They are unique and quite strong. They fit perfectly into the balance at their level.
Even with 2-6 damage, archers remain too effective. Other level 2 ranged units still lag behind them significantly.
Rajis - Rakshasa
It's not clear why they were touched at all. This is clearly not a "no choice" pair.
Rajis may be slightly weaker than Kshatriyas, but they fit much better into the tolerable concept of mages. Perhaps, in the controlled environment of the Random Tactics Arena (RTA), a mage could be made into an attacker, with Kshatriyas looking much stronger, but in normal games, this could not be relied upon. Kshatriyas appeared very rarely there. In the vast majority of cases, Rajis were chosen.
If it was so important to balance the pair, then it clearly wasn't by buffing Rajis.
Dancers of Death:
Buffed to the level of overpowered Wind Lords.
Masters of the Bow:
They were already very strong. The buff is clearly unnecessary!
Mountain Guards:
They still don't reach the level of Warriors. In my opinion, it's still necessary to nerf the overpowered unit and bring the other one up to its level.
Berserkers:
The other unit is still much stronger. Their abilities are too good.
Fire Demons:
The explosion is 3 times stronger? The formula is almost like that of a Skilled Armageddon Mage. In my opinion, their HP should be buffed more than anything. Well, maybe also increase their initiative by one.
Demonesses:
With 9-13 damage, the conceptual feature of the faction disappears: a large damage range. It would be better to buff them in a different way.
Higher Vampires, Vampire Princes:
In my opinion, the Higher Vampires were buffed unnecessarily. It would be better to further reduce the power of the overpowered unit if it remains strong after the nerf.
Hunters, Night Queens:
In my opinion, invisibility shouldn't have been touched. It wasn't about penetration, but about cunning.
Swift Riders:
In this pair, the Riders are overpowered. 100% chance to trigger is an excessive buff, but it still doesn't surpass the ability to destroy almost any stack by reducing defense to 0.
Shadow Lords:
In my opinion, the balance is good in this pair.
Red Dragons:
The buff is strange. It would be better to simply emphasize their more aggressive concept.
Nomad Centaurs:
+1 initiative is a very strong buff. If it's not enough, then it's better to reduce the attack of the War Centaurs.
Daughters of the Sky:
Another caster(( I didn't like this in the Trials of Fire expansion either. But this is probably a matter of taste.
Also, the following should be fixed:
Vermin, Harpooners, Warmongers, Offspring - overbuffed.
Thunderbirds and Banshees - underpowered.
In my opinion, the crossbows were changed for no reason. They are unique and quite powerful. They fit perfectly into the balance at their level. Even with 2-6 damage, archers remain too effective. Other level 2 ranged units still lag behind them significantly.
Hmm... The point of the mod isn't to balance units of different races, but to balance pairs of upgrades. DemonSD
I don't even understand why they were touched. This clearly isn't a "no-brainer" choice. The Rajis might be slightly weaker than the Kshatriyas, but they fit much better into a tolerable concept of mages. Perhaps, in the controlled environment of the Random Tactics Arena (RTA), a mage could be made into an attacker, making the Kshatriyas seem much stronger, but in normal games, you couldn't rely on that. Kshatriyas appeared very rarely there. In the vast majority of cases, the Rajis were chosen.
A strange "tolerable" unit with a clearly expressed attacking skill, "Charge." They need to run and attack with Charge. I would give them a flanking attack as well - they would hook and grab with extra pairs of hands while running past. :DDemonSD
They've been buffed to the level of overpowered Wind Lords.
Yes. The balance of a pair of upgrades should be such that if one is overpowered and the other is weak, then either the weak one should be brought up to the level of the strong one, or the strong one should be brought down to the level of the weak one. As long as there is a choice of which to take.DemonSD
And they are already very strong. The buff is clearly unnecessary!
Same as above.DemonSD
They still don't measure up to the Warriors. In my opinion, the overpowered unit should be nerfed, and the alternative should be brought up to its level.
The Guardians are good at dealing damage with machines. If you don't move from your position (+5 defense) and fire with a ballista. That's when the counterattack damage comes in handy. But otherwise, yes, they could be buffed a bit more (I still prefer buffs over nerfs).DemonSD
The alternative is still much stronger. The abilities are too good.
The Cleaver is there to help. :DDemonSD
An explosion 3 times stronger? The formula is almost like that of a Skilled Armageddon. In my opinion, the HP buff is more than enough. Well, maybe the initiative could be increased by one.
First, try to surround yourself with a cluster of enemies to deal massive damage. Second, demons are positioned as slow tanks. So, initiative is not an option.DemonSD
With 9-13 damage, the conceptual feature of the race disappears: a large range of damage. It would be better to buff them in a different way.
Maybe.DemonSD
In my opinion, the higher-tier units were buffed for no reason. It would be better to further reduce the power of the overpowered unit, if it remains strong after the nerf.
*sheepishly* I even made it so that my higher-tier units swing a saber in the front hemisphere (though, 50% damage to non-primary targets). They still only drain blood from the target of the attack.DemonSD
In my opinion, invisibility was nerfed for no reason. It didn't decide the outcome in combat, but in trickery.
Indeed.DemonSD
In this pair, the overpowered unit is the Riders. 100% flanking attack becomes too strong, but it still doesn't surpass the ability to destroy almost any stack by reducing its defense to 0.
100% flanking attack deals damage * 2 to the target. The Riders start dealing more damage than damage * 2 at full speed if the target has more than 20 defense. In principle, they are positioned as killers of armored stacks. But! There is another nuance. If you designate the extreme point of the Riders' route as "passable": 0 then you get an interesting field for creativity and maneuvering: 1) You can attack adjacent targets. 2) You can attack without retaliation. 3) You don't have to run around the target for double damage - just attack. DemonSD
In my opinion, this pair is balanced.
I didn't really look at this pair. I always took the Sovereigns. They are very good with Vampirism. :DDemonSD
The buff is strange. It would be better to simply emphasize their more aggressive concept.
But it is emphasized, isn't it?DemonSD
+1 initiative is a very strong buff. If it's not enough, it would be better to reduce the combat initiative of the other unit.
I like it. It's logical - there was an archer. He upgraded into the same type of archer - his initiative decreased. That's not right. In the case of the Combat unit, it's understandable - heavier armor for melee combat and so on. DemonSD
Another caster(( I didn't like this in Armageddon Empires either. But this is probably a matter of taste.
Do you mean "damage caster"? Because the shamans were already caster-buffers. But yes. If you encounter them in a battle, you'll leave half the army under chain attacks.
Do you mean "damage-dealing caster"? Because shamans were indeed casters who primarily provided buffs. And yes, that's true. If you encounter them while exploring, they can cripple half your army with their chain attacks.
Don't druids and mages bother you? Daughters of the Earth are the strongest or one of the strongest creatures at their level. They have a very powerful ability (spell attack), high initiative, and potential for retaliation. Considering that the upgrade was intended to be magical, it's strange that Daughters of the Sky can't use magic from the first turn without goblins. It's quite easy to defeat them as neutral creatures, as they don't slow down or speed up the weather, and their combat potential is weak, which puts them in a losing position compared to the Daughters of the Earth.
They already exist. That is, there are already 2 strong offensive spellcasters at level 4. Considering that level 4 is the favorite level for guarding passages to various zones (adjacent/defensive/treasure), it's already like a lottery – someone gets lucky, and someone gathers meat to keep losses at an acceptable level. If you add another offensive spellcaster, and one with a 4th-level spell, and a mass spell at that, it will be a complete disaster.Andrail
Daughters of the Earth are the strongest or one of the strongest creatures at their level. Very strong ability (spell attack), high initiative, potential for retaliation.
A very debatable statement. The generally recognized leader is, of course, the Archmage. This is confirmed by numerous tests.Andrail
Considering that the upgrade was intended to be magical, it's very strange that the Daughters of the Sky cannot use magic from the first turn without Goblins.
WHAT? The Daughters of the Sky can't use magic? Are we playing different games? Haste/Slow hasn't been canceled. 3 casts versus 2 for the Daughters of the Earth. The Daughters of the Sky can only not use Chain Lightning. That's how it was intended – it's for use with the hero. By the way, Goblins can be part of mixed neutral armies. Also, there's the "Sword and Sorcery" week.Andrail
It's quite easy to defeat them as neutrals, as slowing and speeding up the weather won't help, and their combat potential is weak, which puts them in a losing position compared to the Daughters of the Earth.
The Daughters of the Earth are defeated as neutrals just as easily. They are simply a fast melee unit, nothing more.
The point of the mod isn't to balance the units of different factions, but to balance pairs of upgrades.
That's understandable. But why create new overpowered units? If in-game balance isn't important at all, they could have just upgraded archers to the level of marksmen. For example, give them 5-11 damage. It's obviously much better to balance units in pairs, based on the unit that's already balanced.
A strange, somewhat "tanky" unit with a clearly defined offensive skill, "Charge."
It's not the unit that's tanky, but the faction. The Kshatriyas have much higher offensive potential, but it's difficult to realize it with an academic because of their low attack and defense stats. In most late-game battles, mage troops try to survive, not attack. And Rajahs fit into this better, with slightly more HP and they don't take as much damage in return.
...either from bottom to overpowered, or from overpowered to bottom.
You're wrong. Are you saying that dancers are a weak unit? Compare them to other level 2 units: zombies, gargoyles, demons. They're definitely not an underdog. I'd say they're stronger than many. I don't remember anyone complaining about them before alternate upgrades appeared.
The same goes for the Elves. They were one of the strongest units at their level. It's just that the Elves that appeared in Warlords of the North were made ridiculously overpowered.
GS are good for breaking through with machines.
I agree. They are indeed good for early breakthroughs with machines or chaos. But not better than warriors. +5 to defense is -20% damage. Warriors need to move 2 squares away to get the same effect.
First, try to cluster the enemy around you to deal massive damage. Second, demons are positioned as slow meat. So initiative isn't an option.
Do you think that if you increase the explosion damage by 3 times, someone will cluster together?) It will just be another unbalanced ability. 30 demons explode, dealing about 300 damage. Is that okay? How do you break through them? With 9 initiative, they won't become fast meat, just a little faster than the older ones, which will increase their appeal. As an option, you could give them the unused ability "flame of vengeance," I think. An explosion upon destruction of the stack. It was planned to be given to priests. But here, too, the question arises of how to break through such demons.
Isn't it emphasized, though?
The damage of black dragons is noticeably higher: 45-70, compared to 45-60 for red dragons. And burning is too situational. It's somewhat reminiscent of the demon explosion. It's very difficult to use.
And I like it.
I like it too. Yes, it looks logical. But nomads also had their initiative and damage increased.
Added 15 minutes ago Andrail
Aren't druids and mages a problem?
Not as much. They have relatively low initiative, which gives you the opportunity to counter them. But Daughters have an initiative of 12. They move before most key stacks. Even a hero with a keen mind might not be able to move earlier.
It's quite easy to break through them as neutrals... their combat potential is weak, which puts them at a disadvantage compared to Daughters of the Earth.
It's easy to break through both of them. I wouldn't say that Daughters of the Sky are weaker. They're just more difficult to implement and less useful in breaking through neutrals. But in the final battle, it's not so clear-cut. If they gain level 2 rage, they tear faces off with their chain attack. At level 3, the damage from the chain attack is generally insane. If you take Secrets of the Light, you can cast chain attacks right away.
It's understandable. But why create new overpowered units? If in-game balance isn't important at all, they could have just upgraded Archers to the level of Rangers. For example, give them 5-11 damage. It's obvious that it's much better to balance pairs of units, focusing on the one that's already balanced.
I don't quite agree. Almost every faction has its own overpowered unit at its level. If you balance everything to the middle, you'll end up with 8 average factions with 7 average units. I'm a fan of "bright spots." And, to be fair, in this mod, it's not the damage of Archers that's being increased, but rather the area of application of a pretty good defensive ability is being expanded. Against the backdrop of a nerf to Rangers.
DemonSD
It's not a unit that's tolerable, but the faction. The Kshatriyas have much higher offensive potential, but it's difficult to realize it with an academic build - low attack and defense stats. In most final battles, mage troops try to hold out, not attack. And Rajahs fit into this better, with slightly more HP and they don't take as much retaliatory damage.
I see the contradiction here, young Padawan...
1) If Rajahs survive due to higher HP, then why do they need retaliatory attacks? They should stand in defense, under focus fire, without losing their increased defense stat, and only counterattack.
2) In fact, Kshatriyas are much stronger in defense than Rajahs because it's dangerous to focus fire on them with a group - the retaliatory attack will hit the group.
DemonSD
You're wrong here. Are you saying that Dancers are a weak unit? Compare it to other level 2 units: zombies, gargoyles, demons. It's definitely not an outsider. I would say that it's stronger than many. I don't remember anyone complaining about it before the appearance of alternate upgrades.
The Psionic complained. Death Dancers, as well as Wind Dancers, are very fragile. But Wind Dancers have increased armor when they rush in, while Death Dancers don't. And, by the time they can realize their "PA" by rushing into a group, there are very few of them left. And standing in defense and waiting for the enemy group to come to us is not in the style of highly initiative and damaging, but very fragile units of the Union.
DemonSD
Similarly, for the Elves. They were one of the strongest units at their level. It's just that the Elves that appeared in Warlords of the Inferno were made into an extremely overpowered unit.
Yes, Elves are a bit over-buffed, but I don't know what to do about it. But Masters get a double bonus from Bloodlust, Claw, and Forest Fury.
Oh, if the Elves had a ranged unit that fires 4 shots at a time... :D
DemonSD
I agree. They are really good in early game with Machines or Chaos. But not better than Warriors.
+5 to defense is -20% damage. Warriors need to move 2 squares away to get the same effect.
Moving away = losing +30% defense. It's easier to stand in defense and wait.
DemonSD
You think that if you increase the explosion by 3 times, someone will start to cluster up?) It will just be another unbalanced ability. 30 demons explode with damage of around 300. Is that okay? How do you beat them?
And that's how you beat them. Something the AI doesn't really like to use the explosion effectively. But on a random occasion, when there's no one nearby, it's a different story - they just explode. Or is it just me who gets lucky...
DemonSD
With 9 initiative, they won't become fast meat, they'll just be a little faster than the higher-level units, which will increase their appeal.
They need not initiative, but Surprise Attack. :D
DemonSD
Black dragons have noticeably higher damage: 45-70, compared to 45-60 for red dragons. And burning is too situational. It's somewhat reminiscent of the demon explosion. Very difficult to use.
Yeah. Just like Demons - Surprise Attack.
Added 7 minutes ago DemonSD
I wouldn't say that Daughters of the Sky are weaker. They're just more difficult to implement and less useful in clearing neutral stacks.
But in the final battle, it's not so clear-cut. If they gain 2 levels of Fury, they tear off half the face with their chain attack. At level 3, the damage from the chain attack is generally insane.
I'm saying that Daughters of the Sky are a magical damage unit of the Orc hero, deprived of spell power.
But as neutral units... level 4 with a chain attack that hits on the first turn... May Malassa not allow such clearing:smile15:
DemonSD
If you take Secrets of the Light, you can cast chain attacks right from the start.
And also 2 items from Sar-Issa (they also increase spell power).
Very interesting. There are too many "ifs." How often do you level up a Barbarian into a Mage on spellcasters, taking artifacts like Sar-Issa, Secrets of Light, etc.? I would rather take Stormwind or ignore the Suppression branch against a combat-focused Light unit. The point is that the Daughters of the Sky need leveling up, while the Daughters of the Earth can immediately start dealing damage.
Vampire Princes are strong, but they are more situational. Moreover, they are weakened here (which is correct).
The combat potential of the Daughters of the Earth is much higher due to their higher stats and strong magic attack. The Daughters of the Sky are practically inferior to them in almost everything, and there is no compensation for this through magical power.
The combat potential of the daughters of the earth is much higher due to their higher stats and powerful spell strike.
There is no significant imbalance in this pairing. At least, this is indirectly confirmed by the fact that opinions are divided. Perhaps the daughters of the sky need a slight buff (or a slight nerf for the earth daughters), but there's no need to make them unconditionally powerful spellcasters with an initiative of 12.
At level 4, there are already plenty of damage dealers. They often guard key passages. The probability of imbalance will be even higher: some will have bone dragons or vampires guarding the passage, while others will have daughters of the sky, and what should they do?
Our opinions are divided, but take a look at other mods. Everywhere, the Daughters of Heaven are being buffed, and this is based on many online games. In TE or even in TBM, mana has been added, and in RTA, initiative has been added, as there are no piercing attacks there. This probably means something.
Remix
