Suggestions for a SOD mod. — General

Kventin

9 years ago

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I recently rediscovered the Heroes games.
And I'm really enjoying how well-thought-out and skillfully made everything is.
Watching streams of SoD is a real pleasure.
However, there are a few things that, in my opinion, could be improved.

First, it's the magic system; I'd like to get rid of the lack of alternatives for Earth and Air magic.
- Introduce a new magic school called "Space" (Control), and move all spells that are performed on the world map into it.
- Move "Resurrection" to Water magic.
- Move "Explosion" to Fire magic.
- Move "Prayer" to level 1.
- Make Expert "Blindness" affect an area, like Meteor Shower.

I understand that the "Space" (Control) magic will be essential to learn, but the other four should become noticeably more balanced.

Second, it's the skills; there are too many completely useless skills, and Diplomacy is overpowered and can't be used:
- Combine "Scouting" and "Eagle Eye".
- Combine "Learning" and "Literacy".
- "Mysticism" restores 4-6-8 mana.
- "First Aid" grants +5-10-15% health to all creatures in the army.
- "Diplomacy" only allows you to recruit creatures of the hero's race; only creatures that are already in the hero's army can be recruited, and only if their number is less than the maximum.

I think these changes would refresh the game and make it even more interesting.

Lider1

9 years ago

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An innovator at the end of the game... Google Tournament Edition TE and World Tournament WT

Your suggestions to change the balance are not new. Although I haven't seen some of them. In general, the point is that those branches are already dead, but Sod is still alive.
Now they've made HotU, but I don't know what's going on there, it seems like they didn't touch the magic, but they added a lot of other stuff.

dnaop-wr

9 years ago

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Currently, only baratorch, with his HD mod, has managed to surpass NWC and create something truly worthwhile. Everything else, I would call greater or lesser perversions, interesting only to certain groups of players. In Heroes of Might and Magic Online, there aren't any significant changes to the gameplay (i.e., fewer perversions).

In reply to Lider1

Kventin

9 years ago

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Lider1

A pioneer at the end of the game... Google Tournament Edition TE and World Tournament WT.

Your suggestions to change the balance are not new. Although I haven't seen some of them. In general, the point is that those branches are already dead, but SoD is still alive.
Now they've made HotA, but I don't know what's what there; it seems they haven't touched the magic, but they've added a lot of other stuff.

Every game would benefit from such an ending.
Regarding TE, there are too many controversial changes.
SoD is close to ideal and requires only minor changes to become perfect. A small rebalancing of magic so that all schools become competitive and a weakening of diplomacy so that it can be used in the game - this is an additional interesting mechanic. And that's basically it.

Added 6 minutes later

dnaop-wr

Currently, only baratorch with his ND mod has managed to surpass NWC and create something truly worthwhile. Everything else I would call greater or lesser perversions, interesting only to certain groups of players. In HotA, there don't seem to be any major changes to the gameplay (i.e., the least amount of perversions).

With all due respect to the quality work of the HotA creators, I am not at all interested in watching or playing it.

Lider1

9 years ago

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As the understanding of the game grows, so does the understanding of its shortcomings. It's a long way to perfection (especially in online mode).
Any changes to the original made by others will be perceived as controversial. This must be accepted and understood.

As for the HD mod, its appeal lies in the fact that it only fixes critical bugs in the original and, most importantly, only improves the gameplay (hotkeys), without interfering with the balance. That's why we love it.

Kventin

9 years ago

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Perhaps someone will be willing to refresh the game.
The main idea is not to create a new game, no changes to the graphics or mechanics.

Only make changes that will be considered interesting by the majority of players.
For example, restructuring the Mage Guild.

At the same time, it is clear that asking everyone what they want is not the most effective approach.
It is necessary to propose an MVP and then collect feedback based on it.

So, in the first stage, it is possible to make a careful rebalancing of magic + the ability to restructure the Mage Guild at any level.
I am ready to financially support the person who can do this.

antoca

9 years ago

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As usual, nobody cares.

In reply to Kventin

Ben80

8 years ago

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Kventin

Every game should have such a great ending.
As for The Shadow of Death, there are too many controversial changes.
SoD is close to perfection and requires only minor changes to become perfect.

I completely agree with you.

Marmot

8 years ago

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Of course, several things should have been reworked: improve the bonuses for the skills Mysticism, Magic, and Learning to reasonable values, fix the effect of Camouflage at the advanced and expert levels, ideally equalize the Resurrection and Raise Dead spells, and make the effect of Resurrection without earth magic permanent, but this should have been done 10 years ago, and today, even if such a mod were released, few people would play it because, except for newcomers, everyone has become accustomed to a certain state of affairs over many years and simply doesn't take useless skills, and Camouflage, if not a basic skill, is not used (does anyone even remember it?).

- Move "Prayer" to level 1
- Expert "Blindness" is cast on an area, like a meteor shower.

And here are some, to put it mildly, bad ideas: making an overpowered skill even more overpowered. No one would play "Heroes" like that.

In reply to Marmot

Kventin

8 years ago

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Marmot

but this would have had to be done about 10 years ago, and today, even if such a mod were released, few people would play it, because everyone except beginners has become accustomed to a certain state of affairs over many years and simply won't use pointless skills.

Theoretically, this could be done step by step.
That is, implement one change and ask players to play with it, collect feedback, and decide whether to keep the change, adjust it, or remove it.

And this, to put it mildly, is a bad idea: to make an overpowered unit even more overpowered. No one would play "Heroes" like that.

In 1.5 years, I have rethought many things, and much of what was proposed is no longer relevant - for example, a separate school of magic, or moving the prayer skill.
And my vision of skills is completely different now.
But blindness in a two-hex radius seems like an interesting solution to me, especially at the expert level.

In reply to Marmot

Ben80

8 years ago

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Marmot

Of course, a number of things should have been reworked: the bonuses for Mysticism, Magic, and Learning skills should have been improved to reasonable values, the effect of Camouflage should have been fixed at the Advanced and Expert levels, ideally, Resurrection and Raise Dead should be made equal, and the effect of Resurrection without Earth Magic should be made permanent, but this should have been done 10 years ago, and today, even if such a mod is released, few people will play it, because everyone except beginners has become accustomed to a certain state of affairs over many years and simply don't take useless skills, and Camouflage, if it's not a basic skill, is not used (does anyone even remember it?).

But these, to put it mildly, are bad ideas: to make an overpowered thing even more overpowered. No one will play "Heroes" like that.

I think that now, no matter what, few people will play it. Although some "Heroes" communities (I mean groups of people) could quite possibly play using their own patches with minor changes, since everyone has a completely different opinion on what needs to be strengthened and what needs to be weakened (I have already become convinced of this).

In reply to Ben80

Kventin

8 years ago

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Ben80

I think that now, no matter what, very few people will play it. Although some "Heroes" communities (I mean gatherings of people) could play using their own patches with minor changes, since everyone has a completely different opinion on what needs to be strengthened, what needs to be weakened, etc. (I've already seen this).

If something is being done for single-player, then it should definitely be done this way.
But if something is being done for multiplayer, based on the experience of watching hundreds of online matches:
React to feedback.
Don't make changes for the sake of changes, but only with a clear understanding that it will actually improve the game.
That is, there is a chance for popularity.

For example, there is one change, primarily for JC, which is likely not difficult to implement.
It will increase the spectacle of the final battles and at the same time slightly rebalance all the factions.
It would be very interesting to test it in practice.

In reply to Kventin

Ben80

8 years ago

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Quentin

If something is being done for a single-player game, then this is definitely the way to go.
But if it's being done for a multiplayer game, based on the experience of watching hundreds of online matches.
React to feedback.
Don't make changes for the sake of changes, but only with a clear understanding of how it will actually improve the game.
That is, to increase the chances of popularity.

For example, there is one change, primarily for JC, which is likely not difficult to implement.
It will increase the spectacle of the final battles and also slightly rebalance all the factions.
It would be very interesting to test it in practice.

Returning to the topic of improving SOD - besides the perfectly good option of continuing to play the original game, there are 2 main paths.
1) Make a series of changes based on rational analysis to increase the variability of the game, etc. This is the path that Hota has long been planning to take, but is hesitant to do so, for understandable reasons - the resulting game/mod for Heroes 3 can only be called such in a very conditional sense.
And then the question arises - if you have found the resources/strength/time for such a serious rework, maybe then it would be better (better from different points of view - including from an ethical point of view) to make another, new game (which can be called whatever you want)? Is there a lack of ability to do this?
2) Slightly polish SOD, generally accepting all its features, not always high variability, and in some cases - irrationality.

In reply to Ben80

Kventin

8 years ago

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Ben80

Returning to the topic of improving SOD – besides the perfectly good option of continuing to play the original game, there are 2 main paths.
1) Make a series of changes based on rational analysis to increase the game's variability, etc. This is the path that Hota has long intended to take, but is hesitant to do so for understandable reasons – the resulting game/mod could only be called Heroes 3 in a very conditional sense.
And then the question arises – if you have found the resources/strength/time for such a serious improvement, maybe it would be better (better from different points of view – including an ethical point of view) to make another, new game (which can be called whatever you want)? Is there a lack of ability for this?
2) Slightly refine SOD, generally accepting all its features, not always high variability, and in some cases – irrationality.

I am, of course, in favor of the second option.
And the most difficult thing here is to determine what and how to "refine" it so that it appeals to players.

In reply to Kventin

Marlo_Stanfield

8 years ago

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Kventin

I definitely prefer the second option.
And the most challenging part here is figuring out what and how to "polish" so that it appeals to players.

Ideas like the ones mentioned in the header won't appeal to players. There's the Rose Cavalier plugin for single-player, and multiplayer has its own features, such as restructuring the guild of mages. What else can be "improved" here, and more importantly, for whom?

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