Posts from Stronghold vs. Necropolis

Orc versus Necromancer. Any suggestions? I'll start with my observations: the Orc Warrior is weaker than the Necromancer Shaman, even though it seems like it should be the other way around. However, considering the combat abilities and bonuses to health, etc., there's only a slight advantage, which the Shaman can easily take. Orcs are difficult to heal, and even Life Drain won't help much, but it can be very effective for the Necromancer. One option is to level up the Shaman in Blood Magic, place a Storm Totem in front of the opponent, and attack head-on; this might work. In general, share your builds and experiences if you have any.

download the Dark Magic dampening effect

What the heck is Dark Magic dampening? It's a tier 6 skill, bro.

NecPlusUltra, dude, you don't know what you're talking about.

If there were consistently 3 main factions competing, there wouldn't be any problems. You could play as Orcs and dominate everyone with the Earth Idol. But as it is, it's just a mess...

Play in Skirmish mode; Orcs rule there. :)

I'll start with my observations: the Orc Warrior is weaker than the Shaman, even though it seems like it should be the other way around. However, considering the combat cries and bonuses to health, etc., there's only a small, negligible advantage, which the Shaman could also benefit from.

How is that a "negligible" advantage?! We max out the Orc Warrior, giving him ALL combat passives. Unlike the Mage, all his warriors have a preemptive strike and an additional retaliatory strike for the first 3 turns, and the archers attack without penalty. This is no longer a negligible advantage, even without considering everything else. Plus, there are skills that provide resistance against magical damage, morale reduction, and damage. In addition, the warrior will have dispel magic, so the undead won't drain and regenerate too much.

The real problem is the mind control ability. I don't know how long it lasts or how many times it can be used in a battle. (Maybe someone can help?) But in any case, the mind control problem can be partially solved with Stone Skin, so your own units don't kill each other too much.

ramzes, have you seen how much mana "Subjugation" consumes? Let them use it. What's the problem?

ramzes, have you seen how much mana "Subjugate" consumes? Let them use it to their heart's content. What's the problem?

It consumes 45 mana – not that much. The duration is 2 turns! This will cause my own cyclops to attack my own warriors: a reduction in army strength, and the cyclops won't attack the enemy for two turns. In those two turns, the undead will have time to significantly damage the panthers, for example, by attacking them with the same cyclops. And the main damage is dealt by the mass attacks of the panthers and cyclops. So, "Subjugate" is actually the problem.

Added 2 minutes later
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So, submission is actually the problem.

Unless you use the tactic you described. :)

I put an Orc Warrior Tears of my own against a Necromancer Mage. What a noob! First, he cast General Weakness on me, to which I simply used the path ability "Break Shackles." Then, on the first turn, he actually hit me first with ghouls, which triggered First Blood, and my warriors got +10% phys. damage and +2 movement range. Thanks to this, I was able to use Cyclopes with Strike to block his broodmothers, the crushers calmly reached the liches, and the panthers ran up to the ghosts, who had already crept closer by that time.

Generally, it should be hard against Necromancers, but not against the AI. Who wants to duel me with Necromancers in the next 4 days while I'm free?

Added after 8 hours 26 minutes
I think the Orc Warrior has only one chance to take down a Necromancer Mage: block the liches and broodmothers before the cyclopes die off.
Among Necromancers, these stacks deal the most damage because they have magic attack. Wraiths hit a bit weaker, but champions are brutal! 25 stinking spiders wipe out 5 cyclopes at a time, not to mention various centaurs.
If the opponent isn't a fool, he'll use tactics and cover the broodmothers. Then you'll have to break through either the ghouls or the lamassu, depending on the troop deployment. The only question is: how many orcs will be left alive by then. The balance of power is, of course, in favor of the undead, but there are chances. Orcs have something to answer paralyzing spells with. Their path ability "Strength against Magic" practically paralyzes liches and broodmothers, and partially ghosts, who besides attacking can heal (twice per battle). This will give the orcs time to hit the ghouls and lamassu with superior numbers. If you manage to remove the cover from the broodmothers, you need to immediately throw someone with Retribution at them or cover them with a stack that has Fire Shield applied. That's how some chances appear...

And in practice, Subjugation works for one turn on cyclopes. :)
Strength against Magic (path ability) is brutal! 25 broodmothers don't kill a single goblin. :)

Added after 2 hours 3 minutes
That's it, I think I've picked a build option for the Necromancer Mage. Here's how I'm leveling.

1. Dispel - mandatory, otherwise General Dehydration, Restoration, and Stone Skin - you might as well surrender, you won't break through anyone, or at the very least you won't be able to finish off broodmothers with that same thing, only single-target and therefore stronger.
2. Aura of Retribution 2 - if the Necromancer Mage levels Basic Magic and Magic of Darkness to level 3, then the broodmothers' damage = 3300-3800! It's a sin not to rush them with Retribution, especially since their warriors will likely be protecting them around them.
3. Healing - when units become few, cries will be less useful than healing. The skill will come in handy at the end of the battle when there are few cyclopes left.
4. Fire Shield - need to block the broodmothers somehow. Retribution alone isn't enough - they'll dispel it and that's it, there must be a backup option.
5. General Heroism and General Fiery Resolve - must be taken together. Otherwise, General Despair removes the Heroism effect and simultaneously lowers morale. And with negative morale, you won't reach the broodmothers later. But this way, General Fiery Resolve follows General Despair, and it turns out the Necromancer wasted mana and time. By the way, it's exactly the same if he tries to cast General Weakness - in response, the path ability "Break Shackles" and that's it. The Necromancer must gain an advantage through spells. Otherwise, they'll be torn apart in melee: as soon as the broodmothers and liches are blocked, it gets tough for him. And protecting the lamassu will be hard for him - it's a multi-cell stack, not particularly armored and requires more Necromancy accumulation for restoration than ghouls and ghosts.
5. Heroic Assault - will help deal damage and not waste a turn if someone cannot reach the target. Combines well with the dreamwalkers' ability to increase movement speed by 1. Gives a good opportunity for troop regrouping. For example, if someone was killed and there's no one to cover the liches. In general, a necessary thing, requires no mana and gives an immediate effect. Otherwise, you can cast Flawless Attack on crushers, then they hit for one turn, and on the next, they are already paralyzed, but here the effect is immediate.
6. Reinforcement 1 and hero specialization for +7 health to crushers. The skills combine well. And Heroic Assault also works well for crushers. (They are the ones who sometimes don't reach where they need to.)
7. Fury, Fortitude, Endurance 1, Defense, Counterattack 3 - the most appropriate skills from the art of war, in my opinion. There's no point in leveling Endurance 3, because against undead it's more important to kill than to survive; there's no point in leveling shooting, as it's better to increase leadership or luck to 7 - that's for the whole army, not just for goblins and striking cyclopes. Giant Killing and Cleave - same thing - better to take leadership.
8. Defender 3, Aggressor 3, Leadership 3, Luck 3 - you've got to break the Necromancers, what can I say.

So that's about it. I've already tested it on the AI. I'd like to check it on a human. Anyone want to duel in the next 3 days?

Did you defeat a strong Necromancer AI?
By the way, isn't that too many skills? You won't be able to use them all in battle anyway. Counter Strike 3 is the best for a warrior! IMHO.

Yes, a strong one. I just defeated a human player online just as easily. He didn't use the right tactics; all his units were lined up in two rows, and his spiders were unprotected. That's just the beginning. On his first turn, he cast a General Plague spell. I cast Magic Resistance, and the plague had no effect, and the spiders and liches didn't hit anyone. Plus, his units' attack increased due to the plague. In short, he surrendered on his third turn! There was really nothing left for him to do.
I don't have too many skills. It's important to have something to counter the undead's spells.

Added after 43 minutes
I just defeated another player. He used a defensive tactic with his troops: he didn't attack with anyone, so the liches would fire first and Blood Fury would activate. On his first turn, he cast Vampiric Offering on his vampires, then he defended with spiders for some reason, instead of turning them into archers. In response, I cast Heroism (General), and used Dream Catchers to speed up my troops. I waited with everyone until his Crusher reached my vampires. They reached them perfectly, after which Blood Fury activated. And after that, everyone attacked the vampires, and on the second turn, the panthers already destroyed them before anyone else could move. After that, everything went smoothly. He cast Enslave on my Cyclops, and I cast Magic Resistance. One turn of Cyclops against me – so what? But his liches, spiders, and ghosts can't deal any damage at all, damage = 0! In short, I defeated him beautifully. :)

I've never heard of what "inflicted strength against magic" means. But based on your description, it sounds interesting. And can "Strength against magic" be removed with "Dispel Magic"? "Strength against magic" is a racial skill of a path that reduces magical damage proportionally to the hero's strength (not attack, but strength itself). It seems like it can be removed. Therefore, it's better to apply it after the Necromancer has cast spells. And in general, when playing as a Warrior, it's often better to wait and see what the Mage does, and then react.

I tried playing against myself, pitting a Necromancer against a Knight – it’s tough, of course. There’s a dangerous synergy between strength and magic called “Dark Elemental.” If you boost strength against magic before the Necromancer gets a turn, he can summon a Dark Elemental, dispel Panthers or Centaurs, and eliminate them in one turn, rendering all his spells useless. After that, there’s very little chance of winning. So, it’s best to wait until the Necromancer casts his spells and then use strength against magic on your first turn. If you do it on the second turn, it’s usually too late: without the stack of Panthers or Centaurs, it will be difficult. On the second turn, you can try to protect the Weavers, or at least the Liches.

Chingis, playing as a mage in the Stronghold faction doesn't make much sense, as they don't have any Primary spells, and there's only one unit that attacks with magic – the Stalkers. Cyclops' ranged attack also deals magic damage, but as you noticed, the damage is very low, so it's better to use them in melee combat (especially if you actively use their ability). I won't say anything about development, but ramzez's option looks viable in any situation.

Chingis, there's really no point in playing as a Necropolis mage, as they don't have access to Prime magic, and there's only one unit that attacks with magic – the Dreamwalker. Cyclops' ranged attack also deals magic damage, but as you noticed, the damage is very low, so it's better to use them in melee combat (especially if you actively use their ability).

So what if they don't have Prime magic? Yes, a Necropolis mage will cast spells weaker than their opponent, but this can be partially compensated for by only leveling up one type of magic and primarily using it (Earth, if going for Tears, and Air, if going for Blood). Regarding the units, it's debatable. Dreamwalkers are powerful; the spell deals damage to all 7 units for two turns and hits again during those same two turns. Is that a weak mage?! Cyclops shoot weakly, especially when playing against mages. Put a Warrior against them, level up their ranged attack in skills, and then we'll see who shoots weakly. And if a mage goes against a mage, the Cyclops don't even need to shoot; Orcs have a stronger attack, and this should be used in melee combat.

Orc mages have another advantage: it's called "flexibility." They are the only race that has both Light and Dark magic. Therefore, there is a wide range of possibilities to adapt to the opponent.

And no one has canceled the advantage in the strength and mobility of troops. You can confidently play as a mage with Orcs. There are many possibilities; if you understand all of this, you can easily defeat any opponent.

Added after 1 hour 14 minutes
I've already played several online duels as an Orc Warrior against Necropolis mages. And I won all of them. However, the credit was more due to my opponents than to me. People simply didn't use level 2 tactics and didn't protect their Necromancers, which, in my opinion, is a gross mistake. After that, it's not even necessary to cast Magic Resistance as the first move. Then I use another trick: I wait until the turn approaches the Cyclops, and if the opponent hasn't cast a spell yet, I cast Inner Flame on them. This spell increases the Cyclops' initiative by 10 and also increases their damage by approximately 20%. And that's it: I block the Necromancers with Cyclops, and shoot Goblins and Centaurs at the Liches. Then, of course, I take some damage from Ghosts, Liches, and possibly Necromancers (who are no longer shooting), but still, the exchange of blows on this turn clearly favors the Orcs. And on the next turn, Magic Resistance is cast, and the Necromancers are in trouble.
In the last battle, the opponent cast Dominate earlier than expected. I simply shot Centaurs at the Cyclops, after which the spell dissipated, and only about one and a half Cyclops died, judging by the damage. I cast Magic Resistance and calmly started beating everyone. At the same time, I also had a preliminary Counter Strike for the first three turns. That is, they couldn't even hit me. On the first turn, the opponent surrendered. :) Total: 12 wins, 5 losses in online play. :)

ramzez, I didn't say that Snow Golems are weak units. I know perfectly well that they deal excellent damage if the hero has high magic attack and Magic of Earth III is leveled up. But Snow Golems and Cyclops are only two units, against five that deal physical damage. You can find a tactic for this setup as well, but I would prefer to strengthen six squads of Warriors rather than show "flexibility" by having decent damage with only two.