Pavlik Morozov — Everything about everything.

Dracon Малласа

18 years ago

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In this thread, I would like to discuss the concept of betrayal in more detail. Can it ever be noble? Or is it always base and despicable? What drives a person to betray? And are the well-known pioneers Pavlik Morozov and his follower Kolya Migotin worthy of honor?

Lux in tenebris

18 years ago

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Dracon Mallasa, it's certainly an interesting question. Those who believe will forgive. Those who don't believe will never forgive. But the path of a traitor is one: to beg for forgiveness from the Lord and not hope for salvation. (Indigo) It came to me instantly.

Loken

18 years ago

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Heh-heh. Betrayal? Is that noble?
Betrayal is evil; it is, as religious people believe, the worst of sins, for which, according to one author's fiction, a person rests eternally frozen in ice, on the last, ninth circle of Inferno, and I, no matter how much of a blasphemer I am, agree with that.
What could be more pleasant than a stab in the back from a friend? Perhaps, many things. And what could be more unpleasant? I'm not sure.
Betrayal is what breaks a person; betrayal is vile, low, and unsportsmanlike; betrayal is the fate of a weak-willed person who is unable to find honor within himself;
[fanatically] Betrayal, finally, is what almost destroyed the Imperium and killed the Emperor...
Warlord Horus, may his name be cursed forever and ever, who betrayed humanity, being charmed by the deceitful voices of the Warp gods, went against his brothers. He is a traitor, and he is dead. By the hand of the very Emperor who became a god. And so it will be with every cursed xenos, mutant, and heretic who is just waiting to plunge a poisoned dagger into our backs, do you hear?! With every one!!! [/fanatically]

Alucard

18 years ago

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In reality, it's clear that not everything is so simple; there's also "lying for good" and so on. Therefore, it's important to consider what you're comparing. The same act of betrayal can be viewed in a certain abstract, global context. For example, if a person betrays a friend but saves people in the process (by turning in a friend and saving hostages), then they are indeed doing good. But if you consider it in relation to the friend, they are simply betraying them. Personally, I lean more towards Locken's position: if you've become attached to easy money and decided to commit crimes, you should defend your position to the end, rather than betraying a friend by choosing "the lesser evil" (a standard excuse). Betrayal is just further evidence of cowardice and a lack of the ability to stand up for your ideals and principles (because it turns out we are betraying them too).

Dracon Малласа

18 years ago

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Alucard, you've given a good example of how sacrificing a friend can save hostages. Could anyone actually do that? I doubt I could. I don't have that many friends to just throw away.
And could anyone act like Pavlik Morozov?

Loken

18 years ago

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what kind of friends are these, who take hostages? o_O
friends-terrorists? there is no camaraderie among them. there is calculation. the main difference between "a lie for good" and a possible "betrayal for good (which I doubt exists)" is that it doesn't harm anyone.
I generally believe that a small and harmless lie sometimes makes life much easier.
although this doesn't relate to the topic at hand...

eXeCuToR

18 years ago

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Yes, I agree with you about Lokken. But what about Pavlik Morozov? He was a real moral degenerate. There's no way I would betray my family for some party that promises who knows what. And the fact that he was even made a national hero is just disgusting.

idiotto

18 years ago

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Mm, eXeCuToR, you see, a party is just a symbol. For you, it's nonsense. I don't recognize communism or the Soviet era with its party either, but many people back then believed in it and considered the party to be something... well... cool. The point is that he betrayed his family for what he believed in. That's it. P.S. Regarding betrayal as a sacrifice of friendship for the happiness of others, it's very complicated; the situations are always different.

Alucard

18 years ago

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Are they friends or just terrorists? There's no camaraderie among them.

Oh, but you're wrong here. What about mutual support and so on? Friendship among these people is strong; it's human nature to unite in stressful situations.

"Lies for the greater good" versus possible "betrayal for the greater good (which I doubt exists)" – it doesn't harm anyone...

Lies come in different forms, and I wouldn't say that it doesn't harm anyone.

What about Pavlik Morozov? He's a moral monster. No way would I betray my family for some party that promises who knows what.

Here, it's important to consider what you're comparing it to. The same betrayal can be viewed in some abstract, global plan... <...>then he is indeed doing good, but if you consider it in relation to a person, he is simply betraying a friend.

And objectivity is also important, because for a truly devoted party member, he was a hero.
P.S.
Is it okay that I'm quoting myself?))))

eXeCuToR

18 years ago

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I understand. It’s just disgusting to realize that after brainwashing, a person can betray even their own roots, and after all, a party is nothing more than brainwashing. Although, of course, there were people who simply fanatically believed in it.

Visiteur

18 years ago

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Scah! Grrr, you traitor!

Added 7 minutes later
The case of Pavlik Morozov only proves that the USSR was a bunch of terrorists who brainwashed the true Russian people!:mad: It's better to be under the protection of America than communists-terrorists! And in general, when I read the book about Pavlik Morozov, I threw it out the window! And now my opinion: Treachery is the worst sin. A traitor should not be shown any mercy or forgiveness. A traitor can be treated like a dog, and God will forgive it. And in general, my uncle is the archbishop of the city of Ivanovo. With us, treachery is twice as bad as death.

Loken

18 years ago

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I have to deal with people like this in my extermination work.

Oh, but you're wrong here. What about mutual support and so on? These people have strong friendships; it is human nature to unite in stressful situations.

Yeah, yeah. If a terrorist is a suicide bomber, then he is a mad fanatic, but if it's the same hostage-takers, then the above is far from certain. Moreover, it is fundamentally wrong. "Old friends who have been together since the first grade" suddenly start killing and kidnapping – this is more than rare.

There are different kinds of lies, and I wouldn't say that some of them don't harm anyone.

The very word "good" implies that it does not harm anyone, but may even help.

P.S. About betrayal as a sacrifice of friendship for the sake of others' happiness, it's very complicated; the situations are always different.

Well, well. If you think like that, you can justify a lot, and then come to a dead-end conclusion about a goal that justifies the means.

Dracon Малласа

18 years ago

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In essence, betrayal is a change of ideals. A person is raised in a certain way, and then they realize that they were lied to (even if it was for their own good). What should they do now? Live a lie or change their ideals? This is where the question of betrayal arises. Of course, the opposite situation is also possible: a person lives in truth, and then they are led astray by lies, as happened with Judas.

betrayal is evil; as religious people believe, it is the worst of sins, for which, according to one author's fiction, a person rests eternally frozen in ice on the last, ninth circle of Inferno.

Wow, I recognize Dante's lines! But it's also worth mentioning Judas, tormented by Lucifer himself.

In reply to Dracon Малласа

Wistrit

18 years ago

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In my opinion, the main thing is not to betray yourself. This doesn't mean that the last egoist, who fiercely clings to his own benefit, is a role model.
But if you've been walking the same path with someone for a certain amount of time (say, 10 years), and everything seemed to be fine, and no one was putting each other in a position to make a choice, etc., but one day your friend takes a path that you find repulsive and that you will never support. And you have a choice: continue on (betraying yourself) or betray your friend.
So, which of these two options is a betrayal?

Dracon Малласа

18 years ago

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After all, you can try to steer your friend away from this awful path without betraying yourself. P.S. Personally, I don't know how I would act in this situation. I wouldn't be able to betray a friend; there's nothing worse than being without friends.

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