Posts from TOURNAMENT TROUBLES!

Greetings, dear tournament participants!

I have created a specially designated thread where all pressing issues that may have arisen during, before, or after the tournament for any version of Heroes could be resolved.

At the same time, this does not mean that it can be used for flooding.;)

So, I will try to provide an objective assessment of the unrecognized bugs regarding Heroes 3.

I'll start by saying the following (regarding the 3rd stage of the Van Cuninghame tournament):

1. The tournament map, which I carefully reworked, contained that same surprise not by accident, but intentionally!
2. Two solutions for a speedrun of this map were also chosen: either taking an artifact or defeating everyone.
3. By starting the tournament, I pursued several goals at once:
- to give pro players a bit of a brain teaser;
- to let amateur players play for pleasure;
- after the end of the tournament, to conduct a debriefing and teach beginners by example how to complete a tournament quickly using different methods!
- to identify players who completed this tournament in an unconventional and, most importantly, fast way!

But, to my surprise, players began indirectly discussing the tournament while it was ongoing and considered some moments in it simply unacceptable. Fortunately, we have very experienced and active professionals who were able to dissuade this group. A special thank you to you. However, the question itself remained. I will try to answer it.

Let's dive into history...
In those distant times when I first entered offline tournaments, I was simply shocked by those who used cheat codes, editors, "diggers," same-seed programs for rough runs, damage calculators, and so on and so forth..., because I always considered this cowardice, incompetence, and a meaningless pursuit for those who use them.
All my mockery and other loud words regarding the use of the aforementioned by players in tournaments made me the laughingstock and did not produce the desired results that I believed should be (banning the use of the above methods for play)! "If you don't want to use them, don't—but we will" was the ironclad response from the players I debated with; it only made things worse for me...
After several tournaments, I realized that if you don't use all this, you will NEVER even place in the top 10 (with a quorum of 50 people, for example). There are exceptions, of course, but very rarely—1:1000 or more. Therefore, willy-nilly, I had to use the map editor (usually that's enough for me) to secure a reasonably decent place in tournaments (in the top 10).

Therefore, I was forced to conclude that professional players on any resource dedicated to Heroes of Might and Magic PRACTICALLY ALWAYS USE:
1. The map editor – to view all events, monster counts, Pandora's boxes, available heroes, and other bits and bobs placed by the tournament organizer.
2. Cheat codes – for scouting and rough runs (in windowed mode, you can see the number of monsters and their loyalty! See what magic is being built in which castles. What is located in tombs and Dragon Utopias, etc.).
3. A hero-digger – to dig up any hero permitted on the map (morphology works 100%).
4. Special programs that make a player's life easier.
5. Load-saves – to choose the most winning option for oneself (the computer might take a different path and accidentally kill itself on centaurs, for example).
6. Summoning portals – in castles with Conflux, at the start of the week, one can expect exactly the living unit that the player needs (if there are external monster dwellings).
7. Artifact trader – on the first day of every new month, you can dig up absolutely any artifact not banned on the map (load save on day 7).
8. The Mill, Mystic Garden, etc...
9. Cunning methods based on perfect knowledge of Heroes that only a limited number of players know.

In reality, there are many more secrets, and if anyone needs them, I will gladly share them to raise your level of play. We could even open a professional development school for Heroes, or a school of mastery. But will our pros reveal their secrets? On our resource, I think so, because we not only have many people playing Heroes professionally, but they are also wonderful conversationalists, teachers, and friends all at once. If we open such a school of mastery (I am sure of it), then I very much hope that they will gradually reveal their heroic secrets, while sharing priceless experience and teaching beginners to discover new and same nuances of a game like Heroes!
On other Internet resources, I think this will never happen, for various reasons...

Now I will move directly to the question that is tormenting all players of the past Heroes 3 tournament: WHY IS THE BALLISTA ALLOWED?

If you were not convinced by the points above, then I'll try to answer a question with a question, if you don't mind?

Why didn't the developers make a clear sequence for the appearance of heroes, resources, artifacts, money, and secondary skills? Why does the Medal of Vulnerability act "strange," to put it mildly? Why do the ballista, ammunition cart, and first aid tent have infinite ammo, shells, and medical kits? Why, under certain conditions, can a hero move infinitely (without cheats) long?

Because that is exactly how the developer intended it! And such questions will always arise; there's no escaping it because new players keep arriving.

At the very beginning, I made the decision to play only on the Heroes COD 3.2 version, where all standard bugs in the licensed version were removed (double casting, selling artifacts at inflated prices, minor flaws). However, it turned out that many of our forum members do not have this version of Heroes. Therefore, I made the following decision: play ON ANY VERSION OF HEROES except VOG, so that everyone who wants to can play without restrictions. I will also reveal a small secret: it is IMPOSSIBLE to determine the version of Heroes from a save file; therefore, on any other resource where you see this (the requirement to play only on a specific version), if they say the tournament is only on one version, you can actually play on any—just don't use standard bugs! Organizers are bluffing when they say that if you play on the wrong version and send the save, you'll get banned.
I would be glad if such a program to determine the game version appeared on the World Wide Web. The difference can only be seen with TE, and accordingly, it can be determined that the game was on TE!

In connection with this, a decision was made NOT TO USE STANDARD BUGS (which are fixed in COD version 3.2) in Heroes 3 tournaments, in any versions of Heroes other than VOG, while allowing everything else provided to us by the developer 3DO—that is, strategies, tactics, and other wisdoms provided in the game.

If you still think that ballista-killing is a bug, then I dare assure you that everything else listed above is also buggy! In other words, if we ban ballista-killing in tournaments, it will be necessary to ban everything else too.

Option: in the next tournament, I can make exactly such a tournament map where the number of randoms is minimized and there is exactly 1 hero! There will be no computers, no castles with artifacts, and there will also be a ban on using the ballista, tent, and ammunition cart; secondary skills will be identical for everyone (pre-set), magic will be identical, everything will be identical for everyone...
...What do you think the results will be at the end of the tournament?
...Anyway, if I haven't been able to convince you of my decision to USE ballista-killing in tournaments, then I await your suggestions and wishes.

Respected IronAxe correctly noted that many pro players use such untraceable programs that do not violate the game structure IN SECRET (programs for auto-morphing particularly long battles, digging up heroes, resources, artifacts, monsters, etc.) and use intricate tactics and strategies in the hope that no one will ever discuss them publicly and certainly won't provide them with the program itself!

Therefore, the verdict:
Thank you very much, vbn, for your active participation in the life of the forum, for your program, and for your work for the benefit of our forum!
Your program will take a place of honor in the library www.heroesworld.ru.
Use it when necessary and improve your game in HEROES, dear forum members!

THE COUNTRY MUST KNOW ITS HEROES!

P.S. And finally, a question to those who believe that the ballista with infinite ammo is a bug.
Do you consider that
1. Killing 5000 dendroids with 1 fairy (using nothing else) is a bug.
2. Killing 300 dendroids with 1 azure dragon using a first aid tent is a bug.
3. Taking a castle with one archer and an ammunition cart during a siege, while guarded by 1000 dendroids or any non-shooting, non-flying monster, is a bug.

Respectfully, VDV_forever

VDV, respect and +1 (when they fix morale)... actually, we had a tournament in our clan to improve our gameplay... and VDV decided to act on a larger scale and open a school to improve skills... I'm all for it... for example, I could use some help improving my gameplay. I would gladly sign up (if it opens). vbn, respect and +1 (when they fix morale), for the program... it made life easier for people. Now, regarding cheats, trainers, etc... I only use cheats during the very first, rough playthrough, in order to (as VDV said) see what was generated in the save, etc. The editor, as I understand it after Heroes V, is probably one of the most important parts of the PLAN for completing a map, and an experienced player... it seems to me that by looking in the editor, they can immediately outline the path they will take, etc. I don't use the "hero digger" (I just don't like it), I dig manually (it usually turns out faster, I don't know how it is for you). Well, that's basically it. I would really like the "HW School for Improving Gameplay" to be OPEN. ____ Sincerely, RAP ____

During the 3rd stage of the Van Cunningham Tournaments, I noticed a small flaw on the map:
The map is multiplayer, meaning it can be played by two players: red and blue.
Example: I end my turn on day x. On day x+1, the blue player attacks me and kills my main hero. The map will then be completed in more days than planned.
Solution: At the end of day x, I create save 1.GM1. Now, in multiplayer mode (setting it for two players), I load this save. I skip a turn. It becomes blue's turn. I move as blue however I want (either moving the hero away or attacking and losing) and then skip the turn. At the start of red's turn, I create save 2.GM2. Now, in single-player mode, I load save 2.GM2 and resave it as 2.GM1.
Done; blue's turn has been handled as desired, and on day x+1, the main hero is alive. Problem solved.

P.S. I didn't actually use this method during the tournament

P.S. And finally, a question for those who believe that a ballista with infinite ammunition is a bug.

I tend to think that using infinite ammunition in a ballista is a bug only because the ballista window shows how many ammunition it has. If the number of shots exceeds this, it goes into negative values. What the developers intended in this case is unknown. If they wanted to use infinite ammunition, they wouldn't have added a shot counter for the ballista. But on the other hand, maybe the counter ended up in the ballista window by accident! Therefore, let the organizers and players decide what to do. I like the fact that you decided that this is not a bug, but a feature. It increases the number of tactics for conducting clever battles.

Do you think that:
1. Killing 5000 dendroids with 1 fairy (without using anything else) is a bug.
2. Killing 1 Azure Dragon with 300 dendroids using a tent of healing is a bug.
3. Taking a castle with one archer with a supply cart, during a castle siege with 1000 dendroids guarding it, or any non-shooting, non-flying monster, is a bug.

This is a lack of AI in the combat tactics. Winning such a battle can also be equated to a bug. After all, no one knows if the developers expected such a result or not. Again, on the other hand, this can be considered a feature. The thing is, we all know that the battle is actually being played, but we don't know who played it and how. Therefore, draw your own conclusions. Either ban them altogether. Or allow people to play them however they can.

Added after 3 minutes

In the 3rd stage of the Van Kaningham tournament, I noticed a small flaw in the map:
The map is multiplayer, meaning you can play as two players: red and blue.
Example: I end my turn x. On day x+1, the blue player attacks me and kills my main hero. The map will be completed in more days than planned.
Solution: At the end of day x, I make a save 1.GM1. Now I load this save in a multiplayer game (setting two players) and skip a turn. The blue player's turn begins. I play as the blue player as I want (either I move the hero away, or I attack and lose) and skip a turn. At the beginning of the red player's turn, I make a save 2.GM2. Now I load save 2.GM2 in a single-player game and resave it as 2.GM1.
Done, the blue player's turn is done as desired, and on day x+1, the main hero is alive. The problem is solved.
P.S. I didn't use this method in the tournament myself.

WELL DONE!! On the portal, maps with offline and multiplayer modes are prohibited!! They disable this mode somehow and then generate a starting save!! How could I forget about that? And now, how will VDV determine who used this trick and who didn't? That's bad :(

By analyzing the save files at the beginning and end of each turn, you can determine everything.
If the computer actually made a move,
then it will also make the same move during verification, even if not on the first try.

You can determine everything by looking at the save files from the beginning and end of each turn. If the computer actually made the move, it will also make the same move during the verification process, even if it doesn't do it on the first try.

I was just checking this myself :) So, each of the leaders should send additional save files – at least 3-4 days' worth of their latest saves from the end of each turn – so that it's easier to verify.

I don't know how it works, and perhaps my frankly disastrous result doesn't give me a voice, but I will never use the "kopalka" (digging tool). What actually differentiates it from other cheat programs? The fact that it cannot be verified? I don't know, but judge for yourselves: even on this specific map, the same with the ballista (by the way, also a controversial point—whether it's a bug or not: I won't say what I think, as I haven't used it;)) or without the ballista, is a significant thing. There is no hero with a ballista in the tavern right away—everyone's saves are the same. Maybe I misunderstood how this program works, but this is NOT part of the game. This is external interference, and not just any, but into the Gameplay... Let me be a loser forever, let them call me an eternally whining last-place finisher, but I will not use it—I cannot. And I won't whine about others either—whether to use it or not is everyone's personal business. But this is a forum, and anyone can express their opinion here, even if it doesn't coincide with the opinion of the majority.

I don't know what and how, and maybe my frankly disastrous result doesn't give me the right to an opinion, but I will never use a "digger" program. What exactly is the difference between it and other cheat programs?

The "digger" and the "ballista-killer" don't do anything impossible; they just save real time, just like using cheats for scouting. Moreover, legalizing them eliminates luck and hours of reloading (running around the map) from the tournament. What really comes to the forefront is the ability to come up with and implement a strategy. If you want improvisation and randomness, there's online play for that.

I would like to share a few thoughts.
1. Summoning Portal ... What stops the map maker from removing all dragon castles from the map?
2. Dendroids ... What stops the map maker from replacing them with monks, for example?
3. Golems, fairies, and other elementals ... Who is stopping the map maker from removing elemental castles and roaming squads of elementals and golems, as well as all sorts of slow "stompers"?

With this kind of map preparation (all roaming squads either shoot or fly with a speed of at least 7, preferably 9), some of the issues would be resolved, wouldn't they?
And now about the ballista.
There is a limited number of heroes with a starting ballista. Who stops someone from locking them in prisons and separating all these prisons from the rest of the landscape with mountains? Of course, a ballista can be bought in some castles, but that is also a matter of editing ...

I don't know what or how, and maybe my frankly disastrous result doesn't give me a voice, but I will never use the digger. How exactly is it different from other cheat programs?

I hope Fireball explained to you in accessible terms what differs from what? And that you will finally understand the difference between a cheater, a loser, and a player who tries to play Heroes for results, but at the same time saves their time by using all sorts of automators that don't do something that couldn't be done manually. That is, he completes a actually beatable battle in accelerated mode, and that's it. A cheater is someone who uses programs to complete a actually UNbeatable battle (that's a crude definition, of course; there are smarter cheaters :). A loser is someone who plays for pleasure without using anything extra and doesn't understand the difference between a cheater-player and a pro-player :)

A loser is someone who plays for their own enjoyment, without using any additional advantages, and doesn't understand the difference between a cheating player and a skilled player.

What a strange definition! "Looser" means someone who loses. It definitely doesn't mean what you wrote. More accurately, it refers to a regular user. And even then, it's somewhat unfairly insulting to many.
In general, the definition corresponds to the word "noob," in its original meaning, i.e., a beginner – a person who, due to a lack of experience, doesn't understand many aspects of the game.

With this kind of map design (where all wandering units either shoot or fly at a speed of at least 7, and preferably 9), some of the issues will be resolved, won't they?
Now, about the ballista.
There are a limited number of heroes who start with a ballista. What prevents us from locking them in dungeons and separating all these dungeons from the rest of the landscape with mountains? Of course, in some Fortresses, you can also buy a ballista, but this is also a matter of editing...

:) Magic can be used to clip wings, slow down units, break bows and arrows, and turn your fast-moving units into slow-moving foot soldiers. To do this, you need to manage your mana. Once Qwerty's units become foot soldiers, the issue of using automated scripts will again come to the forefront. You can simply delay the game, which will again allow automated scripts to work :) But again, this can be solved by editing. Remove magic, remove wells, remove fountains. Leave only one Fortress in one corner and another in the other. Two heroes - one of them is the opponent's hero, and in the middle is a unit of flying creatures :) and nothing else. This is where tactical and strategic thinking will truly shine - should you attack these flying creatures or bypass them and immediately go for the Fortress? Qwerty - you'll be the only one playing on such maps :)

Added 6 minutes later

What a strange definition??? Looser means loser. It's definitely not what you wrote. Rather, it refers to a regular user. And even then, it's somewhat unfairly offensive to many.
In general, the definition corresponds to the word "noob" in its original meaning, i.e., a beginner - a person who, due to a lack of experience, does not understand many aspects of the game.

Maybe I was wrong in my definition of "loser," but the main idea of the post was not to give an exact definition of a loser, but to show something else - the difference between a cheater and a pro, which users, losers, and noobs don't want to understand. What difference does it make? They want everyone to play like them, without delving into the nuances of the game, unlike cheaters and pro players.

I've never used the map editor because I find it uninteresting, and I don't even know what a cheat code is. I don't think I have any specific programs that make the game easier! I guess I'm not a pro.

Added after 14 minutes
But personally, I think that using cheat codes and various programs doesn't indicate professionalism, and I won't even talk about the map editor – it's just unfair and uninteresting.

Hmm, I'll add my two cents...

1. The tournament map, which I reworked with particular care, contained that very surprise not by chance, but deliberately!

Let's remember...

Now, I will directly address the question that worries all players who participated in the Heroes 3 tournament: WHY IS IT ALLOWED TO USE THE BALLISTA?

If the above points did not convince you, I will try to answer a question with a question, do you mind?

Why didn't the developers create a clear sequence for the appearance of heroes, resources, artifacts, money, and secondary skills? Why does the vulnerability medal work, to put it mildly, "strangely"? Why does the ballista, the ammunition cart, and the first aid tent have infinite ammunition, supplies, and first aid kits? Why, under certain conditions, can a hero move infinitely (without cheats) for a long time?

Because that's exactly how the developer intended it!

I disagree... I have an opinion, and no one can contradict him. The ballista should have 24 shots...
Digging up the Grail in one day is also intentional? In my opinion, this is a bug related to the simplified check of the "no-movement" condition for the hero...
A fired and hired hero - I don't know, anything is possible..., but:

In this regard, a decision was made NOT TO USE STANDARD BUGS (which were fixed in the COD version 3.2) in Heroes 3 tournaments, in any versions of Heroes except for WOG, and to allow the use of everything else that the developer 3DO provided us with, i.e., strategies, tactics, and other subtleties provided in the game.

If, however, you think that the ballista is a bug, then I assure you that everything else listed above is also a bug! In other words, if you prohibit the use of the ballista in tournaments, then it is necessary to prohibit everything else as well.

You can't buy a fired hero... you can't dig up the Grail in one day... where is the justice?

Option: I can make a tournament map in the next tournament where the number of random events is minimized, there will be exactly 1 hero! There will be no computers, no castles with artifacts, there will also be a ban on the use of the ballista, the first aid tent, and the ammunition cart, secondary skills will be the same for everyone (they will be set initially), magic will be the same, everything will be the same for everyone...
...What do you think the results will be at the end of the tournament?

Who and when said something about randomness? We are talking about BUGS!

...in general, if I failed to convince you of my decision to USE the ballista in tournaments, then I am waiting for your suggestions and wishes.

You didn't convince me... either ban the use of the ballista, or allow digging up the Grail in one day, buying a fired hero, etc.

Many thanks to you, vbn, for your active participation in the life of the forum, for your program, and for your work for the benefit of our forum!

I agree! The person acted heroically!

P.S. And finally, a question to those who believe that the ballista with infinite ammunition is a bug.
Do you think that:
1. Killing 5000 dendroids with 1 fairy (without using anything else) is a bug.
2. Killing 300 dendroids with 1 azure dragon using a first aid tent is a bug.
3. Taking a castle with one archer with an ammunition cart, during a castle siege with 1000 dendroids guarding it, or any non-shooting, non-flying monster, is a bug.

You'll excuse me, but this is a tactic... and there are no bugs here... by the way, there's a lot of philosophy on this topic...
Let's take your surprise as an example; all its parameters suggest that it should be taken on the first day, and what do we have: without a program, a battle takes 20 hours or more :eek:, with a program, 5-6 hours :eek:
Furthermore, the player may not have that much time... (you don't have to look far for an example... for example, me)
Question: why make such battles?
The answer will probably be:

- after the tournament, conduct a debriefing and teach beginners, through examples, how to quickly complete the tournament in different ways!

i.e., show such a battle to beginners?
Perhaps it would be better to create a separate, training tournament for these purposes... like what the respected ZveroBoy did in the fourth Heroes... a very good training tournament, which shows many tactical features of the fourth Heroes. What prevents you from doing something similar... but to put everything together... it seems irrational to me... many players will simply not be able to complete these tournaments...

As an example, I will show you why I didn't pass this tournament... although I really wanted to complete all the stages without skipping and compete for the prizes:
at home, I (for various reasons) do not have the opportunity to leave the computer on all night...
at work either (I think it's clear why)...
but, on Saturday, I had such a chance... :smile03:
I made a quick reconnaissance and attacked the elementals on the first day...
I went to sleep...
In the morning, I come back, the battle is won... and they start giving levels... and then I (with all the horror) realize that during the "quick reconnaissance" I forgot to create a skill tree for the hero... :eek:
they didn't give me earth, but they gave me mysticism and reconnaissance...
I was very upset... and there was no inspiration left...
since there is no way to replay this battle...
That's it, I failed miserably...
of course, I understand that it's my fault... but with such battles, all the charm of the ideology of offline tournaments is lost, the possibility of replaying the battle... i.e., there is no chance for error here... we are not online after all...

P.S. to Qwerty: what you are suggesting will no longer be a game called "Heroes 3"... you shouldn't go too far. IMHO.

Sincerely.

Hmm, let me add my two cents...

Kyle, I have a question for you. Forget about the ballista; I personally don't care what they decide to do with it, the main thing is to inform everyone. But what about battles like a fairy against 1000 zombies? You won't be able to complete such battles without spending time, whether you use an automation tool or not. But there are also other programs, like Arta. What is the difference between it and an automation tool? If you use it fairly for long, but definitely winnable, battles? Moreover, I highly doubt that using Arta can actually be detected. And since there is no way to determine who used Arta and who didn't in a winnable battle, why can't it be used? So, the question is: why didn't you use Arta in the battle with the ballista? Would you have said later that you used vbn's automation tool? The battle can be completed with Arta in just a few minutes. But for some reason, the rule makers initially wanted us to fight for more than 20 hours in manual mode. After I raised a fuss and vbn created an automation tool, the battle time was reduced to (5-14) hours, although it seems that time is no longer a factor, but Kyle gave an example that it does matter. So why not declare Arta as an automation tool and reduce this battle to a few minutes? Then Kyle would have participated in the tournament.