What is written in the wiki is nonsense because it is written by a certain group of people.
Who know what they are writing about...
and they cannot objectively explain what post-punk is. Many, including those who were present at its inception, cannot accurately define the line between post-punk and something else.
It's all taken from the literature of that time, "punk philosophies," and so on, including biographies. So, who knows what post-punk is.
Post-punk is a genre of rock music that emerged in the late 1970s in the United Kingdom as a continuation of punk rock, but unlike it, post-punk was characterized by a greater diversity of musical expression due to the wide range of influences on the genre (krautrock – primarily such groups as Neu! and Can, dub, funk, disco, experimental albums by David Bowie from the so-called "Berlin period," electronic achievements of Kraftwerk).
The debut album of Public Image Ltd in 1978 is rightly considered, if not the first, then one of the first and most influential albums of post-punk.
Instead of the energetic drive and guitar aggression of punk, post-punk is characterized by a slow, monotonous rhythm with a predominance of bass and drums, a sense of growing anxiety in the melodies, detached vocals, and, as a rule, depressing, melancholic lyrics, sometimes full of reflections on death and the meaning of life.[1] Thanks to the work of such groups as Joy Division, The Cure, and Bauhaus, the derivative genre of gothic rock was born.
A number of groups of the "second wave" of post-punk, relying, on the one hand, on the legacy of a number of post-punk groups (Killing Joke, Wire), and on the other hand, on new wave, as well as on industrial music, played post-punk, actively using electronic instruments in the recording. The most melodic electronic post-punk (Depeche Mode) was, in essence, not much different from the electro-pop groups that emerged from the new wave, so the development of alternative music was more influenced by groups at the intersection with industrial music: Chrome, Clock DVA, D.A.F. One of the most influential figures of the underground in the 1980s was Fad Gadget – one of the best melodists in the genre of industrial post-punk (at one time he collaborated with Boyd Rice, recording classic works in the genre of noise).
Is this not objective and clear?
You can also be a virtuoso playing progressive music, but that doesn't mean that others can't.
Not everyone has the same level of skill, and not everyone has the same vision of rock, either technical or progressive, that's a simple answer, that wasn't the point of the discussion...
Punk can be simpler in terms of playing the instrument (guitar, for example), but not in terms of the music itself, billions of small details make even the most mediocre compositions in terms of instrumentation excellent. And punk is primarily music of words.
I haven't noticed and couldn't have noticed that, although there is a niche of progressive punk, maybe I meant that? but it definitely doesn't apply to Lumen...
I don't know about post-black. I didn't try to specifically identify and listen to post-black. But I have one musician friend who says he listens to and plays black metal. Although he plays virtuously, he only accepts pure black metal. Although he listens to tons of music and knows everything about this style and all its branches.
But nevertheless, he doesn't consider "post" to be more virtuoso.
That's his opinion, and among black metal fans, Raw Black Metal is valued, it is considered the standard, but unlike Post-Black, it is Very Repulsive and Primitive....
Added 7 minutes ago
kj1313, don't you think it's unreasonable to call all musicians with the "post" label virtuosos, just because they are post? I don't think you can find many virtuosos now.
I didn't call everyone, if you read more carefully....
Here are Warlock, Iron Maiden, Blind Guardian – virtuosos. Randy Rhoads too.
I don't like heavy metal, it seems boring to me)
Is it reasonable to call some guys playing in a new style and playing fast – virtuosos? Virtuosity is not just about speed.
In Post-Metal, they play slowly ))) I agree that one speed is not enough. And sometimes I just listen to driving music or something atmospheric....
I think you're having a somewhat meaningless discussion.
I agree 100% that it was meaningless from the very beginning, WisTrit didn't like my arguments, and he just decided to express his point of view...