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Offline Snooppy
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#4508
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Wicc
For the president, all these factories, newspapers, and steamboats are nothing more than
pawns in a game; the object of interest is large territories, states, millions of people, and the struggle is for them. How much money or cars he has is irrelevant.
So, why does he steal more and more, and on a larger scale? Please tell me.
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Offline Wicc
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#4509
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Snooppy
So why does he keep stealing more and on a larger scale, tell me please?
If this is about Yanukovych, I'm not in the loop, Ukrainians know better.

And if it's about Putin, personally he doesn't steal much, the reasons are described above. But he allows his inner circle to steal — if you don't feed your support group, someone else will feed them. That's how it has been and will be everywhere and at all times. Stalin, for example, often turned a blind eye to abuses in the state apparatus.

Although calling it theft is not entirely appropriate, it's more of a status rent. Moreover, for top officials, the situation is rather similar to Putin's — political ambitions are generally more important to them than material wealth. A noticeable share of purely material motivation starts somewhere on the 3rd or 4th floor of the vertical power structure.
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Offline Snooppy
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#4510
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Wicc
Businessmen, in general, are more cynical, pragmatic, and selfish than officials. If it's more profitable to pay, they will pay. If it's more profitable to sue or assert their rights through various instances, they will do so. If the amount of bribes makes the business unprofitable, they will leave the business.

Moreover, officials also understand this psychology of businessmen, so they take exactly as much as they are willing to give; ruining a businessman is not in their interests. It's a fairly market-based relationship – if the flow of businessmen to an official decreases, the official lowers the prices for their services. At the same time, a particular businessman may suffer, but as a class, they are in symbiosis with officials.

For a normal business, the most important thing is stability, the ability to plan future income and expenses, no matter what they are. And the main problem for business is a decrease in demand. If there is demand, there will be something to share with officials.
So, based on this, can we say that in civilized countries, such as Germany, England, and Switzerland, the same system operates, only it has evolved to such a regulated and stable state that it is believed that there is no corruption there at all?

Added 4 minutes later
Wicc
And if we're talking about Putin, he personally doesn't steal much; the reasons are described above.
You made my day!

Are you saying that he earned his billions through honest, hard work in 10 years? Do you really believe that?

And yes, legalized theft is no longer considered theft. As they say: if you steal on a small scale, you go to jail; if you steal on a large scale, you sit in parliament. Pragmatism in all its glory!
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Offline Wicc
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#4511
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Snooppy
In other words, can we assume that even in civilized countries like Germany, England, and Switzerland, the same system is in place, only it has evolved into such a well-regulated and stable form that it is believed that there is no corruption there at all?
Yeah.

This might look like this: a certain official promotes the interests of a specific corporation during his work, does not receive money for it (in order not to violate the law), and after completing his career as a civil servant, he gets a job at that very corporation in a cushy position with a good salary.

Moreover, it is not always even a pre-arranged agreement (which can be recorded and proven); the system works more cunningly: corporations themselves offer civil servants, whose activities have benefited them, employment after the end of their term of public service. This motivates his successor to protect the interests of the corporation.

We still have a long way to go...

They even have a special term for it - lobbying. We have corruption, and they have lobbying.

In fact, there is little petty corruption in the West; it is all concentrated at the top. Russia is following the same path: minor officials take less and less money year after year, more and more cautiously, and for increasingly legal actions.
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Offline Ihtiandr
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#4512
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Wicc
With arguments like yours, you could prove that HeroesWorld is mired in cheating, moderator arbitrariness, and outright rudeness. Just bring up a couple of episodes and voilà — a trend.

All the episodes I've linked to are just the tip of the iceberg. Such cases happen all the time across the entire country. A sensible person doesn't need any of this explained; they see and understand it all. And for anyone who isn't yet aware of what's going on, there's Google — you can find a million such cases there. But you twist and turn just to avoid agreeing with obvious things, and you don't offer any reasonable arguments.
Wicc
Explain this to me — why does Putin need money? I mean, just why?

First of all, he wants to live a luxurious life. And there's no limit to luxury; the belly knows no bounds when it comes to food. Putin owns 20 palaces around the world, 15 private planes, 15 private helicopters, 4 yachts, and a watch collection worth 22 million rubles. (more details here). In 2012, Putin's official income was less than 4 million rubles, meaning just to buy all those watches alone, he'd have to neither eat nor drink for 6 years.

Secondly, we live in a world where supreme power is money itself. He wants not only to rule Russia but, like any proper dictator, dreams of conquering the entire world. And with a sufficient amount of money, you can significantly influence the global economy.
Wicc
Developed states differ from underdeveloped ones precisely in that in the former, corruption is orderly and civilized, forming part of the state system.



No, that's what distinguishes Papua New Guinea from Georgia. In developed countries, corruption is suppressed, not legalized.
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Offline Wicc
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#4513
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Snooppy
Are you saying he earned his billions through honest, hard work in just 10 years? Do you really believe that?
What billions are you talking about? Have you seen them?

There's a state resource that he manages as if it were his own. As soon as that state resource disappears, so will the billions.

Moreover, even if there are actually billions in foreign accounts, they are only his property as long as he is in the presidential chair. As soon as he resigns, the billions will disappear somewhere. And the residences and planes will disappear too; they are all status symbols of the head of state.

What distinguishes Putin from many others is that he understands all this. Unlike Berezovsky, Luzhkov, Mubarak, Gaddafi, and others. As soon as they became illegitimate, they lost a lot of money.

The principle here is: if you have a million dollars, the state protects your property rights. But if you have a billion dollars, you have to protect your property rights yourself.

Whether Yanukovych understands this is unknown. But Lukashenko clearly understands it. In general, over the past few years, the number of people who understand this has noticeably increased, not only among state leaders.
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Offline Ihtiandr
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#4514
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In short, everything is clear. Well, maybe it will actually be useful for the Heroes community.

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Offline Wicc
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#4515
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2 Ihtiandr

Dude, sorry, but you're too dumb/naive to discuss these issues with you in this format. I've described the concept; it's up to you to figure it out. If you have enough intelligence and patience, you'll eventually understand.

If you have specific questions, ask, and I might answer. But you clearly can't offer constructive criticism.
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Offline =Stinger=
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#4516
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Lol, Ikhti, no offense – you're in slightly different weight classes. Everything you write consists of links and isn't your own reasoning, but rather some general concepts. It gives the impression that you've just skimmed the surface. Vik, on the other hand, has his own understanding, some kind of analysis, and so on.
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Offline Wicc
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#4517
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Snooppy
Now it's clear why our business isn't doing well: the boss (who is also the owner) absolutely refuses to give bribes and can't stand kickbacks :D
Here, you need to look at the specifics – what kind of business, what is the market structure, what are the legislative requirements/restrictions, etc. There are a number of situations where it is more profitable not to bribe – it is easier to pay an official fine and eliminate the identified violations. That is, to create the image of a prickly hedgehog, "lots of noise, little wool," just to be left alone.

For example, I read the LiveJournal of a friend, bulochnikov, who owns a chain of stores, and he discusses the issue of interacting with supervisory authorities in detail – where you need to give, who you don't need to give to, and who it is even harmful to give to.
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Offline Ihtiandr
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#4518
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=Stinger=
Everything you write consists of links and isn't your own reasoning, but rather some general concepts. It gives the impression that you've just skimmed the surface.

Everything I write is obvious to any reasonable person. You don't need to be a world-class political scientist to see all this. You just need to take a little interest in the events happening in our country on the internet, and not on TV. I can't dispute Wicc'a's adequacy; he is indeed a smart and thoughtful person. But judging by what he writes, I can only draw one conclusion: there is a selfish motive behind it. There are indeed a lot of Kremlin bots on the internet now; they are everywhere. And nothing prevents them from being in our community as well.
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Offline =Stinger=
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#4519
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Ihtiandr
I can't dispute Wicc's rationality; he is indeed a smart and thoughtful person. However, based on what he writes, I can only conclude that there is a selfish motive behind it. There are indeed many Kremlin bots on the internet these days, and they are everywhere. And nothing prevents them from being in our community as well.

Personally, I believe that what he writes stems not from a selfish motive, but from a desire for security about the future, just like any normal family person. Perhaps it looks like an attempt to defend and justify the regime from your perspective, but from my perspective, as a family person, it looks different. I simply have something to compare it to and something to lose.
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Offline KobRa_RR
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#4520
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=Stinger=
Personally, I believe that what he writes stems not from a selfish motive, but from a desire for security about the future, just like any normal family person. Perhaps, from your perspective, it may seem like an attempt to defend and justify the regime, but from my perspective, as a family person, it looks different. There's simply something to compare it to, and something to lose.

When you project yourself into the situation, everything looks different. And let's stop talking about television – it's not relevant anymore; everyone reads the internet now, and they read different sources and different authors!
The conversation was about Ukraine, not about discussing various links. I can throw in a dozen right now, of any kind. And they include opinions from people all over the world, both for and against. And that's normal. I have quite a few of them posted on my VKontakte page.


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Offline Snooppy
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#4521
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Wicc
You need to look at the specifics here – what kind of business, what is the market structure, what are the legislative requirements/restrictions, etc. There are situations where it is more profitable not to bribe – it is easier to pay an official fine and eliminate the identified violations. That is, to create an image of a prickly hedgehog, "lots of noise, little wool," just to be left alone.
There are no problems with regulatory bodies (they don't come around, apparently they know there's nothing to gain). The question is how to promote the product. It seems to be in demand, and the price is attractive, but there are no sales. We already have reliable information about some potential customers that they have their own lobby, and the customer buys from them. It's a common situation, in general. But we are honest! We offer bribes...
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Offline Wicc
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#4522
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=Stinger=
Personally, I don't think there's any selfish motive behind what he writes, but rather a desire for security, just like any normal family man. Perhaps it looks like an attempt to defend and justify the regime from your perspective, but from my perspective, as a family man, it looks different. I simply have something to compare it to and something to lose.
Yeah. He didn't experience the previous episode of the barn collapse, but I remember the period of 92-95 very well. Moving with my parents to St. Petersburg, their search for housing and work, the general atmosphere, everyday life. Oh, how I don't want a repeat of that... In '94, I had to start earning money myself - I went to the outskirts to repair computers at people's homes. I don't think I need to tell you what Kupchino was like in '94 at night. The idea of joining a gym and running around the stadium came to me right then. A decline in living standards is not just about having less soup in your bowl; it's also about an increase in crime, the emergence of a large number of uncontrollable risks, and all sorts of unexpected events. Therefore, those who say, "Let's get rid of Putin, and we'll be better off" evoke a mixture of pity and disgust in me. It's a case where you only learn from your own mistakes, but in the process of making those mistakes, your neighbors also suffer, that is, me. Therefore, I am against learning in this way; I prefer to proactively change minds through discussion.

Added 8 minutes later
Snooppy
There are no problems with the regulatory authorities (they don't come around, probably aware that there's nothing to gain). The problem is with promoting the product. It seems to be in demand, and the price is good, but there are no sales. We already have reliable information about some potential customers that they have their own lobbyists, and the customer buys from them accordingly. It's a common situation, in general. But we are honest! We're just licking the boot...
Well, this is already marketing... it has its own laws. In any case, for a businessman, complaining about difficulties in promoting a product is not a good thing; this is the very purpose of a business - to promote its product. After all, a businessman is not an executor but an inventor. If there are any moral restrictions, then you either need to come up with a way to get around them without violating them, or reconsider them, or leave the business. That is, business problems are a trouble for the state, but for the businessmen themselves, it is a challenge - either I will occupy a good niche, or someone else will. It's roughly like in Heroes - balance is a problem for the developers, but for the players, it's the opposite; the task is to find an overpowered unit and use it effectively. Because, regardless of the game's balance, 50% of the outcomes are wins, and 50% are losses.
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