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Posts from Should we ban the Griffin Conservatory and the Hive of Serpents?
No one has presented any compelling arguments in favor of the ban.
Don't you think that the arguments about "Canned Food" and "Hive" being distributed in completely unequal quantities, and compared to that, your favorite counter-arguments in the form of "invincible force," like hiding elves against 5-10 angels on the 2nd week, don't seem worthy of attention? :confused:
The arguments that canned creatures and hives are often distributed in completely unequal quantities, and compared to this, your favorite counterarguments in the form of an "invincible force," like hiding with elves against 5-10 angels on the 2nd week, don't seem worthy of attention to me? :confused:
I had a team game with Rebellion. After losing almost all my troops, I took Pandora, and there were 15 ogre mages, with their help I took two hives, which turned out to be maximal, and in the end, I killed him on day 127. And in an inter-portal match against a samurai, he played as Broghild, slaughtered a bunch of creatures, and took Utopia on day 121. Of course, I can't say anything and I surrender, but what can you do, it's just a game. Today, GSC defeated me, tomorrow it will be you.
Your desire is understandable, you want to win through skill (and lose accordingly), but you are mistaken if you think that removing canned creatures and hives will mean that ONLY skill will determine the outcome. Just understand that this is a RANDOM MAP! Luck has been, is, and will be, not in canned creatures, but in Utopias or something else. It's not us, it's the game.
I had a team game with Rebellion. After losing almost all my troops, I took Pandora, and there were 15 Ogre Mages. With their help, I captured two hives, which turned out to be maxed out. In the end, I killed him on day 127. And in an inter-portal match against a Samurai, he played as Broghild, slaughtered a bunch of units, and captured Utopia on day 121. Of course, I can't complain and I surrender, but what can you do, it's just a game. Today, RNG favored him, tomorrow it will favor you.
I understand your desire to win through skill (and lose accordingly), but you're mistaken if you think that removing canned units and hives will only make skill the deciding factor. Just understand that this is a RANDOM MAP! Luck has been, is, and will be a factor, whether it's in canned units or in Utopias or something else. It's not us, it's the game.
Konstantin, your post is very interesting. Believe it or not, the last sentence in your post almost exactly repeats my signature on the forum where I communicate most often... BUT, regarding the objections, I don't see any valid ones yet. For example, I'll offer my own: if this rule is adopted, the playstyle of players using the Heroes of Might and Magic V (HoMM5) will change, and they may not be able to provide worthy competition if challenged by players from other resources. Yes, that could happen. However, my firm belief that by removing hives and canned units, all other things being equal, we will sharply reduce the role of luck and increase interest in the game, even if only by a millimeter, remains unshaken. :cool:
How about we organize a tournament where Hives and Factories are banned, and it's played on different maps, just like in the best Heroes of Might and Magic matches? I'll be the first to sign up. Then we'll see what happens in practice.
Всё не так плохо как Вы думаете. Всё намного хуже!
How about we hold a tournament where Hives and Preserves are banned, and it's played on different maps, just like in best of HW? I'll be the first to sign up. Let's see how it goes in practice.
Just started a game with Wlk777, no Hives or Canned Goods, let's see how it goes:smile54:
bRitvo4kA (red, Rampart, Gurnisson, Gurnisson) def Wlk777 (blue, Fortress, Kirr, Kirr), 2SM4d(3), 136 (no Hives or Canned Goods)
It was a bit rough, I didn't play very well, and my opponent developed really well. Taking Utopia on week 3 without Canned Goods and Hives... =). Thanks for the game.
I agree, it's strange that I didn't see any good and convincing arguments. Is the "elf rush" an unbeatable force? :confused:
Let me try to provide an argument.
In Heroes, there are many random factors, each of which can seriously disrupt the balance. But thanks to the large number of such factors, there is a certain probability that they will be more or less evenly distributed among the players. Reducing the number of imbalance factors reduces the probability of their even distribution.
Arguments for: the placement of shrines and "cans" is absolutely chaotic; the problem isn't how often they are taken, but whether they were spawned or not.
Wlk777
I'm actually not against that, if only they were distributed evenly rather than with such a wild variance.
Let me try to explain my "against." The number 10 angels appears most often in your posts. That is an average of four "cans." There is less specificity regarding shrines. Let's say there are 3 shrines). You strive for balance and fairness... Now imagine that the generator gave you all these treats, but you cannot take them due to the ban. Your opponent, instead of "cans," got a medusa nest, two dwarf forts, and a university (together they provide the same Value) and, instead of hives, a Random Major artifact, a second-level Pandora's box, and a Dragon Utopia (again, approximately the same Value). A few such distributions and we'll have to start a new poll: "Ban *any valuable object from the list can be here>*?"
Good post, these are exactly the kind of objections I expected and was ready for :) Тяжелый случай
Most often in your posts, the number 10 angels appears. That is an average of four cans. There is less specificity regarding ducks.
I said 5-10 angels, and although even 2-3 angels are a serious advantage, say on the 2nd week, compared to that same unfortunate external dwelling with elves which many here consider an invincible and terrifying force :) Ducks are more often found in treasure zones, and their number also varies greatly from 4 to 12 per clue; the situation is roughly the same as with angels, although clues are generally much easier to take than cans. So, there are plenty of objects that can be taken with 2-3 angels without losses, while 40-50 elves and their entire company will get slaughtered. Тяжелый случай
You strive for balance and fairness...
Not only that, I also strive to make the game more interesting, so that finals don't often turn into a slaughterhouse with no chance for one of the opponents. Тяжелый случай
So imagine that the generator gave you all these treats, but you can't take them because of the ban. The opponent, instead of cans, got a medusa dwelling, two gnome dwellings, and a university (together they give the same Value) and, instead of hives, a Random Major artifact, a second-level Pandora's box, and a Dragon Utopia (again roughly the same Value). A few such distributions and we'll have to start a new poll - "Ban *any valuable object from the list could be here>*?"
AAA, that's just it—try taking this Dragon Utopia and other valuable objects with your own native troops, while gnome dwellings and medusa dwellings are, in my opinion, slightly different calibers of objects than the subject of dispute. Universities occur rarely, are reasonably well-guarded (you can't always take them on the 1st or even sometimes the 2nd week), and don't give that much compared to the moves and effort spent on them; you could also run around other boosters.
Now here is the thing: everyone here claims in one voice that if this happens, the role of native troops will sharply increase—like native secondaries = victory. What, is it not possible to collect anything tasty from others' secondaries?
Added after 5 minutes Medium_HP
I'll try to provide an argument. In Heroes on random maps, there are many factors, each of which can seriously disrupt the balance. But thanks to the large number of such factors, there is a certain probability of their more or less even distribution among players. By reducing the number of imbalanced factors, the probability of their even distribution decreases.
Well yes, it often turns out "fairly"—one gets an external dwelling with elves and 2 cans, another gets 3 cans; as a result, the first has 40 elves and 2 angels, the second has 9 angels and takes a Dragon Utopia with them. And this happens in almost every game. By the way, I don't know about others, but for me, the most interesting games happened when free angels and vivs (due to their absence or small number) did not influence the course of the struggle.
My friend got disappointed with Heroes, believing that everything depends on luck. He is a candidate for chess master. He played against Captain, who got a lot of cons on his territory. Later, he played against me and lost because he sacrificed on 40*5 griffins. After that, he told me: if there were 20 griffins in a pack, I would take it. I don't want to convince anyone – decide for yourselves. For example, I like to play in TE without native secondary units (there is such an option). I am ready to offer the author of the topic to play, without capturing hives and cons.
. However, my deep conviction that by banning clues and preservatives, all else being equal, we will sharply reduce the role of luck and increase interest in the game, has not been shaken one bit. :cool:
By banning this, we will fill respawns with useless structures. Then your respawn will be filled with caches and nagabanks, while mine will be filled with preservatives and hives (read: nothing) :) Would that be balanced?
РП (Реальное папство!) *Автосейвы не беру и не даю.
By forbidding this, we will fill the respawn points with useless structures. Then, your respawn point will be filled with hiding places and goblin huts, while mine will be filled with canned goods and hives (meaning – nothing) :) Would that be balanced?
So, according to you, without the ban, it would be balanced? :confused:
Just because someone is a chess player doesn't mean they're a good Heroes player. For example, I always consider maxing out my units to be a good thing. In general, all this talk about how conceding gives the opponent an advantage and affects the game (I'm not denying that it can play a decisive role, but not more than 10%) is just whining. I can play with or without it. And I can even let the opponent look at the map at the start, not to the point where they're examining how many griffins are in the pack, but just to get a sense of the layout in a minute, and then continue playing normally.
Wlk777
