The ninth stage of the Kanigem Tournaments — Tournament history (offline)

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Lu41k

10/1/2007 10:23 AM UTC

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THIRD OFFLINE HEROES 4 TOURNAMENT " Saving Angel "

1. To participate in the third offline Heroes 4 tournament « Saving Angel », you must register on our website and leave an application in this thread.

P.S. This tournament is held as part of the general Van Kanigem tournament, therefore all information, as well as its progress and results, will be displayed in that section.

This stage of the tournament is rated.

2. The tournament is played on the Russian version of Heroes 4: Winds of War by Buka. The save will be generated on the Russian version.

3. Game Goal – defeat the enemy.

The result will be evaluated primarily based on minimum time.
If several players have an equal completion time, the winner will be determined by points; if a favorite is still not determined, then by the amount of mercury.

4. Tournament Rules.

1) It is forbidden to use cheat codes during the final run of the save.

2) It is forbidden to restart or perform any other modification of the initial save.

3) Use of the "space" key.

3.1. Use of the "space" key is FORBIDDEN when boarding a boat.
3.2. Use of the "space" key is FORBIDDEN when disembarking from a boat to shore.
3.3. Use of the "space" key is ALLOWED when pulling a killed hero (grave) out from under monsters.

4) Bugs - SaveBag

4.1. Shifting monsters using saving - FORBIDDEN.
4.2. Additional hero upgrades related to saving - FORBIDDEN.
4.3. 65000 arrows for Elves using saving in battle - FORBIDDEN.
4.4. Digging up the Grail - e.g., visiting all idols, finding the burial place of the Grail, then loading a "good" save and attempting to dig up the Grail without visiting idols - FORBIDDEN.

5) Bugs - SinglBag

5.1. Overcoming obstacles on land, i.e., when dragging units with the mouse from upper slots to lower ones, they end up, for example, behind bushes that are normally impassable (the player does nothing forbidden, uses the mouse; during this operation, units lose some of their movement).
ALLOWED.

5.2. Overcoming obstacles when disembarking from a boat to shore, i.e., landing on shore without an indication that landing is possible (the anchor is not visible on the shore), again done with the mouse; units' movement is reset (space is obviously forbidden - see point 2).
ALLOWED.

5.3. Upgrading hero graves using a Thief. Upgrading hero graves using Grandmaster Stealth.

TARGETED upgrading of a grave in this manner is FORBIDDEN.

NON-TARGETED upgrading of a grave in this manner is ALLOWED.
You must provide a reasoned explanation as to why you were forced to accidentally upgrade the grave and why it was unavoidable.

5.4. Upgrading graves using ordinary units on attack, defense, or speed crystals (sapphires) in battle, or increasing magic points.
FORBIDDEN.

5.5. Units carrying a grave are allowed to visit stables, oases, wells, and other objects that increase movement points.
Therefore, EVEN TARGETED transport of a grave through these objects is ALLOWED.

5.6. Use of a hero's spellbook by the hero's grave on the adventure map.
FORBIDDEN.

6) It is forbidden to use "completely Dead-end external dwellings" on the battlefield.
(I will explain in more detail for those who don't understand. I consider a "Dead-end external dwelling" to be a COMPLETELY closed area, for example by rocks or logs, which contains
a small island for a unit, such as a fairy, harpy, vampire, etc.
That is, a place that cannot be entered on land by a unit of the smallest
size (3x3) and can only be reached by air—a kind of natural fortress). Having such an external dwelling, one fairy could beat a hundred Black Dragons and win an impossible battle; to prevent such situations, I forbid "Dead-end external dwellings" in this tournament.

7) Discussion of the tournament on the forum during its progress is FORBIDDEN!!!
(Players who violate this rule automatically disqualify themselves from playing the tournament; their results will not be counted and will be annulled).

8) EVERYTHING ELSE IS ALLOWED.
(unlimited number of heroes on the map beyond eight, and so on).

A "non-dead-end external dwelling", or more accurately a semi-open one, is allowed in this tournament.
By semi-open external dwelling, I mean a place that a unit or Hero can
Enter on foot, while the attacking monsters, regardless of their size, must be able to reach the Hero or unit to strike them (the point of a Semi-open external dwelling is to limit the number of monsters attacking you simultaneously). Besides, it's not proper for a Hero to hide in an external dwelling while the enemies waste themselves on whatever. Our Heroes fight with open visors.

9) The player is required to save intermediate saves for each game day during the tournament run.
Intermediate saves may be requested by the tournament leader to verify the honesty of the run. If the use of cheat codes, or errors and game features explicitly forbidden in the rules, are detected, the player will be immediately excluded from the tournament.
It is also necessary to save controversial battles (e.g., a hero and a fairy against 100 dragons) so that the honesty of the victory in the clash can be verified.

10) Along with the final save, players are required to send a description of the final battle tactics (the more difficult the battle, the more detailed).
If the win depends on morale\luck rolls\specific actions of computer players, a full description of the battle is required—one that allows it to be repeated.

11) Send the final save to the email address Lu41k@yandex.ru. The sent save must contain the tournament number (3), the participant's number in the application table, the abbreviation (SA « Saving Angel » ), and the player's Nickname. Example: 3_1_SA _Lu41k.h4s

12) The tournament starts on October 1 and will last until October 31 (inclusive). The result will be announced on November 6, 2007.

13) After receiving your save, you will see in the application table that:

the save is accepted - indicated by a Bold Nickname

This list can be added to by new participants!
We invite everyone to take part in the tournament!

Saves will only be considered from players who are in this table, so make your applications IN ADVANCE!!!

PARTICIPANT LIST
NUMBER	*PLAYER NICKNAME*
1	Lu41k
2	:( ~~Starhan~~ :(
3	vbn
4	BigAke
5	IronAxe
6	Undergrounder
7	Arandor
8	:( ~~Kamikaze~~ :(
9	General ZeT
10	ZYbr
11	midzhajj
12	SandroXXL
13	Brackman
14	:( ~~StormS-K~~:(
15	LeSHiJ-Max
16	Fireball
17	Romanuel

Everything about the starting save

1. Download the save.

2. The downloaded save must be placed on your computer in the GAMES folder of the installed Heroes 4.

3. Load it and start playing at any time convenient for you, while remembering to make daily saves.

4. After reaching the final action (after which victory occurs), save again.

5. With the final save, describe this last step in detail (most likely a battle); then the results will be processed faster and there will be fewer suspicions of cheating!!!

6. A full description of the tournament map is encouraged (optional). If such descriptions are provided, a contest for the best description will be held; 10 of them (the very best) will take their place of honor in the "Hall of Fame" section!

7. Send this save to the specified address (in the rules of this tournament).

8. Wait for the results.

P.S. The map "Saving Angel" was taken from www.heroesportal.net, author Kolizey.

I wish all participants enjoyment of the game, a good time, and of course GOOD LUCK!!

With respect, tournament organizers Lu41k and Magnus!
P.P.S. We express great gratitude for help in organizing the tournament to Alan, Kyle, and Pandora! Thank you very much!!!!

ATTENTION all tournament participants!!!! The map and save have been replaced!!! Therefore, I ask you to download the new, edited version of the map and naturally the new save for it!!! Once again, I apologize for this incident and hope for your understanding!

- Changed October 5!

"Как это странно всегда..
Вроде бы взрослые люди,
А в голове ерунда..
Мечтаем как дети о чуде.."

Zybr

10/2/2007 11:04 AM UTC

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Sign me up too, I'll give it a shot.

Барон "Vampires"

Отдай свои прошлые сны,
В сомненьях себя обрети,
В бешеном танце душа кружится!
Не думай, что будет потом,
Здесь и сейчас мы живем,
Стань хоть на миг сам собой, слышишь!

Lu41k

10/2/2007 11:05 AM UTC

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Excellent! Keep it up! :) General ZeT, you're number 9! I wish you good luck! And may fortune favor you! ZYbr, give it a try! Everything is in your hands! :) Your number is 10! Good luck and have a pleasant game!));)

"Как это странно всегда..
Вроде бы взрослые люди,
А в голове ерунда..
Мечтаем как дети о чуде.."

IronAxe

10/2/2007 12:13 PM UTC

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Luchik, what’s the status on point 5.4 and the bug with the GRAAL gravedigger? Something needs to be done about it. Take my advice; I wouldn’t steer you wrong. Besides, there’s an even more serious problem here. The starting save requires you to reach the Angel spawning location underground. In other words, am I correct in understanding that destroying computer-controlled opponents won’t end the game? However, the tournament task states that you need to defeat computer-controlled opponents. And how will the secondary criterion for determining the winner based on points work then???
I suggest choosing a different secondary criterion, for example, the hero’s experience points. Then, nothing else needs to be changed in either the tournament task or the starting save.

In reply to IronAxe

LeSHiJ-MaX

10/2/2007 1:38 PM UTC

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IronAxe;115913

Luchik, what's the deal with point 5.4 and the bug with the gravedigger digging up the GRAIL? Something needs to be done. Listen to my advice, I won't give you bad advice :)

With great respect to you, I must disagree.
1. It shouldn't be allowed for the gravedigger to dig up the GRAIL (or, alternatively, allow it to be dug up immediately after the editor is viewed, rather than making it a hassle).
2. I don't know about the crystals, but I don't think they're that important on this map (except for two, they're all in inaccessible locations).
P.S. Don't jump to conclusions:smile43:

С самого начала позаботься о своем месте в жизни, чтобы не уподобиться маятнику. /Херберт. Ф./
Клан: "Смертельный Альянс" - "Mortal Alliance"

In reply to IronAxe

Undergrounder

10/2/2007 1:38 PM UTC

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IronAxe;115913

In other words, am I correct in understanding that the game will not end after defeating the computer-controlled opponents? However, in the tournament task, you specify that the computer-controlled opponents must be defeated. And how will the secondary criterion for determining the winner by points work???
I suggest choosing a different secondary criterion, for example, the hero's experience points. Then nothing else needs to be changed, neither in the tournament task nor in the starting save.

Yes, the game will not end after defeating the enemies. But I misunderstood the goal of the game in this tournament...

Rules:
4. Play until the last action (after which the victory occurs)...

That is, play until the victory; you don't even need to touch the enemies. The points will be clearly displayed in this case; why complicate things?
Well, if there are no points "for combat," then no one will have them.

In any case, I would like clarity, a decision from the organizers.

LeSHiJ-MaX;115944

1. It shouldn't be allowed to dig up the GRAIL with a Necromancer (or then allow digging it up immediately after viewing the editor, why make it difficult)
2. I don't know about the crystals, but in my opinion, it's not very important on this map (except for 2, they are all in inaccessible places).

I agree with the previous speaker :) Digging up the Grail with a Necromancer, in my opinion, is too much.
But eating crystals - why not? Even if it's not critical on this map, it's worth considering for the future...

In reply to IronAxe

LeSHiJ-MaX

10/2/2007 1:43 PM UTC

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IronAxe;115913

Besides, there's an even more serious problem here. In the starting save, you're given the task of reaching the Angel spawning location underground. In other words, am I correct in understanding that destroying computer-controlled opponents won't end the game? However, in the tournament task, you specify defeating computer-controlled opponents. And how will the secondary criterion for determining the winner by points work???
I suggest choosing a different secondary criterion, for example, the hero's experience points. Then, nothing else needs to be changed in either the tournament task or the starting save.

Addition to the question. Will the game end if I simply reach the Angels:o

In reply to LeSHiJ-MaX

Undergrounder

10/2/2007 1:59 PM UTC

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LeSHiJ-MaX;115946

Adding to the question. Will the game end if I simply reach the Angels?

It depends on the number of errors made by the mapmaker. If there are no errors, then it will end.
Coliseum, in general, is a very careful person. I'm afraid of getting reprimanded for a more specific answer, like for "discussing" it. And it won't take long for me to check it myself.

In reply to Undergrounder

LeSHiJ-MaX

10/2/2007 2:15 PM UTC

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Undergrounder;115952

It depends on the number of mistakes made by the mapmaker. If there are no mistakes, it will end.
Coliseum is generally a very careful person. I'm afraid I'll get scolded for a more specific answer, as I did for "discussing." And it won't take long for me to check myself.

Interesting, whose phrase is this: "Can I try playing too? Even though I don't know how."

In reply to LeSHiJ-MaX

Undergrounder

10/2/2007 4:20 PM UTC

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LeSHiJ-MaX;115956

I wonder, whose quote is this: "Can I try playing too? Even though I don't know how."

I didn't copy it from anyone, I swear - I came up with it myself! :D

As for knowing how to play, just the other day I learned about two or three features in Heroes 4 that I didn't know about. So, I don't know everything/can't do everything, I need to learn, learn, and learn - as Lu41k said.
And that's what I'm doing on every map, honestly - and I enjoy it. :)

In reply to Undergrounder

IronAxe

10/2/2007 5:31 PM UTC

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Undergrounder;115945

Yes, the game won't end after defeating the enemies. However, I misunderstood the goal of the game in this tournament...
Rules:
4. After reaching the last action (which leads to victory)...
That is, you play until you win; you don't even need to touch the enemies. In this case, the points will be clearly displayed; why complicate things?
Well, if there are no points "for a battle," then no one will have them.
In any case, I would like clarity, a decision from the organizers.

-------------------
3. The goal of the game is to defeat the enemy.
The result will be evaluated primarily based on the minimum time.
If several players have the same completion time, the best will be determined by points. If a favorite still cannot be determined, it will be based on the amount of mercury.
-------------------
Did you see this point at the very beginning? It's interesting to know which part of the rules and which point has a higher priority. I personally understand these points as follows:
1. On this map, in this specific tournament, the goal of the game is to defeat the enemy. It is written in black and white.
2. The rule that Undergrounder pointed out states that you need to reach the last action when victory occurs, but it does not say that it is the victory of the game. The victory and the last action are defined by the tournament task.
3. However, the mapmaker has indicated a different definition of victory on the map itself. Therefore, either point 3 in the tournament rules needs to be changed to indicate a different goal of the game, or the secondary criterion for determining the winner needs to be changed, or the starting save needs to be changed, and the goal of the game on the map itself needs to be changed to defeat the enemy.
4. What will the organizers say?

Undergrounder;115945

I agree with the previous speaker :) Digging up the Grail with a Necropolis is, in my opinion, an overkill. But eating crystals – why not? Even if it's not critical on this map, it's worth considering for the future...

And even digging isn't an overkill – this is a rare occurrence in offline games, so you can easily live with it, and if necessary, beautifully complete the map using advanced Necropolis technologies :)

Added 5 minutes ago

LeSHiJ-MaX;115944

With great respect to you, I must disagree.
1. It is not worth allowing the Necropolis to dig up the GRAIL (or then allow it to dig it up immediately after viewing the editor, why suffer)

:) Well, allowing the Necropolis to dig up the Grail and allowing it to dig up the Grail without solving all the puzzles are different things. Simply allowing the Necropolis to dig, and other moments related to the Necropolis, makes the game more multifaceted, so to speak; that is, new paths appear for some solutions in the game, and therefore it becomes more interesting to play.

midzhajj

10/2/2007 6:18 PM UTC

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I want to participate in the tournament. Please register me:smile19:

In reply to IronAxe

Zybr

10/2/2007 8:17 PM UTC

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IronAxe;116003

:) Well, allowing players to dig up the Grail in the Necropolis and allowing them to dig it up without solving all the puzzles are two different things. Simply allowing the Necropolis to be used for digging, and other mechanics related to it, makes the game more multifaceted, so to speak. This creates new paths for certain solutions in the game, and therefore makes it more interesting to play.

Or perhaps less interesting; what's the point of using all sorts of bugs and loopholes?! Let's call the tournament "Who can cheat better"? The game has many bugs, that's for sure, and not all of them are described in the rules, but if we allow even those that are...
This isn't multifaceted gameplay; it's a drawback and a headache for the organizers.
Not everyone knows about using bugs; some who do know don't like to use them and try to play fairly, without any tricks or glitches. But these players will HAVE TO use all these bugs too, because it's unfair to lose because you played the map honestly, while another player cheated, even if they won't be penalized by the rules.
In my opinion, this all leads to cheating, and I'm not accusing anyone, but I'll honestly admit that when I was reading about the bugs today, especially the ones I didn't know about, I just felt sorry for the game and the newcomers who are trying to learn it:(

Lu41k

10/3/2007 5:34 AM UTC

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midzhajj, you are registered as number 11!!
I wish you good luck and have fun playing!))

Now, regarding the "tomb technologies". Dear participants, please read the rules!!!! I have highlighted what is allowed and what is prohibited. And this was not just a copy of the rules from other tournaments; each point was discussed separately by us. As a result of all this, it was decided to leave only two:
1) 3.3. Using the "space" key is ALLOWED when retrieving a defeated hero (tomb) from under monsters.
2) 5.5. Units carrying a tomb are allowed to visit stables, oases, wells, and other objects that increase movement points.
Therefore, EVEN deliberately moving the tomb through these objects is ALLOWED.

For quite objective reasons. It's unpleasant when a hero is killed, especially when it's impossible to defeat the monsters to get the tomb, so we are left either without a Hero, which is regrettable, or we have to gather an army to rescue him, but this leads to unnecessary loss of turns and time, and sometimes it is simply impossible, so it was decided that retrieving the tomb with the help of a unit and the "space" key would be allowed, as well as quickly moving the tomb to the resurrection point, using oases, wells, etc.
This is all logical and justified! But if, in addition to this, you SPECIFICALLY level up the tomb, then I'm sorry, but that would be too much!! Forgive me, but can tombs learn and gain experience?? Let's not forget that this is still a tomb, not a living Hero, and our goal is ONLY to resurrect him!! Everything else, the living Hero should do HIMSELF!!
Isn't that logical? So, all other "tomb tricks" are PROHIBITED.

Now, about the most painful question about the map. Yes, unfortunately, this is my mistake, an oversight. I apologize to everyone for this misunderstanding. I will not make excuses and say why this happened. After all, I am the organizer and I bear all the responsibility for this!
So, I have several options for solving this problem; I just need to weigh everything and choose the ONE that is most suitable. I will try to do this as soon as possible, and you will all see the result, plus I will definitely post about the final decision. Until I post the final decision (and I will try to do this today), I ask everyone not to download the map. And those who have already downloaded it and started the Walkthrough, please forgive me and don't rush. I will solve this problem as soon as possible!
Once again, I ask everyone to forgive me for this unpleasant incident!!:(

I want to thank IronAxe for his vigilance, although I, of course, noticed this unpleasantness a little earlier, but...
In general, I will not make excuses again. I am fully responsible for this unpleasantness!

"Как это странно всегда..
Вроде бы взрослые люди,
А в голове ерунда..
Мечтаем как дети о чуде.."

In reply to Zybr

IronAxe

10/3/2007 6:57 AM UTC

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ZYbr;116051

Or perhaps it's not more interesting; what's the point of using all sorts of bugs and loopholes?! Shall we just call the tournament "Who can cheat better"? There are many bugs in the game, that is certainly true, and not all of them are written in the rules, but if we allow even those that are...
This isn't game depth, it's a flaw and a headache for the organizers...

For example, on other resources besides Gugolka, no one has found it acceptable to allow pulling a grave from under monsters; they consider it a bug, a loophole, or cheating. So now, we have to constantly look at others, even if we can make the game more interesting. Why more interesting?
Option without the grave: You solve all the Grail puzzles, send a unit to dig it up, and pass the excavated Grail along a chain back to the Fortress.
Option with the grave: Solve the puzzles, set up the chain, kill a hero on something, pass the grave along the chain, dig up the Grail, and then pass both the grave and the Grail back to the Fortress via the chain.
Which has more facets? Which option? Which requires a more precise calculation of moves and where is the combination more elegant?

Regarding the matter of using the grave to eat crystals, here is what I'll say. If the grave cannot be upgraded using crystals, then speed-running pro players won't be distracted by crystals at all, as they wouldn't waste precious hero moves unless a crystal happened to be right in their face along the way. In the end, their poorly upgraded hero will still win long and tedious battles; it will just take more real-time. And if you, Luchik, give this phenomenon some sort of realistic-objective interpretation, such as the grave being unable to learn, then I will give you a different explanation:
A unit carries the grave for resurrection, visits haste spots and collects crystals along the way :) and places them on the hero (decorates the corpse). After resurrection, nothing stops the hero from eating those crystals.

Well, in any case, if you disagree—far be it from me to stop you. The main thing is that the rules of the current tournament will apply to all players. Everyone is on equal footing. But in my opinion, this was allowed during the 4th stage of Kanigem. Although there was a different organizer back then.

Added 16 minutes later

Lu41k;116110

Therefore, all other "grave techniques" are FORBIDDEN.

Firstly, this statement of yours is not in the rules. Secondly, it contradicts rule point 8)
---------------
8) EVERYTHING ELSE IS PERMITTED.
(an unlimited number of heroes on the map beyond eight, and so on).
---------------
And you surely don't know all the tricks of grave technologies, nor do I, for that matter. For example, nothing stops me from packing more than 8 heroes into graves, and this is permitted. A grave is not considered an active unit on the map. Then I can carefully scatter the graves along the Fortress gates and begin resurrecting them one by one. In this way, I can block the gates of certain Fortresses so that one specific hero can escape to another desired Fortress. At this moment, there may be more than 8 active units/heroes on the map—this is exactly what is written in point 8: having an unlimited number of heroes on the map beyond 8, and so on. Perhaps you misinterpreted this point, but I know for sure that Zveroboy meant exactly THIS in his rules! And that also involves the use of grave technologies. Therefore, it is wrong to write in your posts that all other "grave techniques" are FORBIDDEN. Because such a statement, as I wrote above, contradicts p.8) EVERYTHING ELSE IS PERMITTED.

Lu41k;116110

I want to thank IronAxe for their vigilance, although I of course noticed this unpleasantness a little bit earlier, but..
In any case, I won't make excuses again. I take full responsibility for this unpleasantness!

Well, alright. Nothing terrible has happened yet. Now, if we had all realized this halfway through the tournament—then yes—it would have been a real mess.