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Offline Vanechka
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#16
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Inquisitor;111073
[my humble opinion on this topic]

What's all the fuss about?! :D What's the difference between cheating by looking at the map during a tournament and looking at the map every day while making an extra save, which is then deleted from the playthrough?? ;) The result is the same! The map is visible! Conclusion: it is necessary to allow this type of cheating, such as revealing the map :) Let's make life easier for tournament participants :), because they are coming up with all sorts of workarounds :)

[Sincerely, InquisitoR]

Dear Sir, if you look at my result in "War of the Strongest", I hope you will believe that I learned how to use these cheats three days ago, on this very website.

Perhaps it is pleasant to say things like "let's allow map reveal cheats and make life easier for all the poor participants," but the absurdity of such a statement lies in the following:

(sorry, as far as I understand, you are a moderator, right? although I may be wrong)

I didn't ask you for any permissions: you yourself created the offline rules ("you" - perhaps not applicable specifically to you, but to the creators of the rules), secondly, you yourself created a guide ("for beginners") on cheating in offline mode - that very forbidden cheating!!! - but only in such a way as not to go beyond the rules created by you... well, what's there to be surprised about if the topic of "workarounds," which was not started by me, is being developed by me? after all, you will agree that "reconnaissance" (let's call cheating that) on the current save is just a logical continuation of the cheating started on the starting save (let's now call reconnaissance that).
So why should I (or you) fight windmills???

Everyone is against cheating in principle, but everyone applauds cheating at the start.....
It's strange, to say the least....

What I have understood for myself is that offline games and the heroes themselves (those that are just for fun) are different games, with different rules and goals.

Returning to the beginning of your post, allow me to ask you two counter-questions:
1. What is the difference between cheating on the starting save and cheating on the current save?
My version of the answer: nothing, because it's just cheating.
2. Why then make high-flown statements like "let's allow the poor guys to have something else"?
Unfortunately, I do not have my own version of the answer. But definitely - we don't need to allow the poor guys anything else, we'll manage somehow...

Added 7 minutes ago
Damn, I can't resist adding:
to hell with all the rules!!!
it would be possible to create a fair-play tournament for people who don't care about all the "reps," "graels," "ratings," and so on, who just want to play for a free hour or two, and not a month, and not worry about it later: "how will you, comrade, prove that you played fairly," because it will all be the same anyway...

yes, yes, I understand, this will not happen...
Истинно говорю вам: 21 декабря 2012 года Земля налетит на небесную ось!

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Offline Inquisitor
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#17
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IronAxe;111125
In principle, I agree with your idea, but here's the thing. The organizers are also trying to make their lives easier when checking saves. Therefore, if they allow this cheat code to open the map (which is quite logical), how will they then determine with their special programs who used which cheat codes to complete the map? Maybe someone other than nwcwhatisthematrix also used nwctrinity. It's hard to figure out right away. Then they would have to check each player's daily saves. Therefore, they chose the lesser of two evils: banning the cheat for opening the map. Although, on the test save, they don't prohibit it. IMHO.

I agree, I fully support it.
:) well, that's too much.
That post is just pure off-topic in the thread. It shouldn't be paid attention to.
Vanechka;111147
Dear Sir, if you look at my result in "War of the Strongest", I hope you will believe that I learned how to use these cheat codes three days ago, on this very site.

I'm very happy for you. :)
Probably, it's nice to say things like "let's allow map-opening cheats and make life easier for all the poor participants," but the absurdity of this phrase lies in the following:

To be honest, I didn't feel much pleasure. The absurdity of this idea is that, while making the game easier for the tournament participants, it significantly complicates the checking of saves for the organizers. The latter, in turn, do not like any complications. :)
(sorry, I understand you are a moderator, right? although I may be wrong)

Yes, I am a moderator :smile09:

In general, the overall content of your post implies an accusation against me (which I didn't understand).
1. What is the difference between cheating on the starting save and cheating on the current save?

If you mean scouting the map, then there is a difference. In the first case, you are just a cheater, and in the second, you are a despicable cheater. You can scout the map using an editor, or, like all normal people, directly during the game.

"it's all the same, because it's just cheating" - that's true. :)
2. Why then use high-flown phrases like "let's allow the poor guys to do something else"?

In general, it's a bit of a strange question. If you're okay with it, then it's "for prestige." :)
It wasn't just a combination of words; it was a conclusion from my thought. :)
Damn, I can't resist adding:
to hell with all the rules!!!
we can create a fair-play tournament for people who don't care about all the "reps," "graels," "ratings," and other things, who just want to play for a free hour or two, and not a month, and not worry about it later: "how will you, comrade, prove that you played fairly," because it will all be the same anyway...

I fully support this type of tournament.
Alliance of Light — лидер клана (список кланов на HW) :)

ФЛУДОВСКИЕ ССЫЛКИ! — сообщить о бесполезной теме/сообщении.
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Offline Vanechka
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#18
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Inquisitor;111160
I am very glad for you :)

In general, the overall content of your post implies that you are accusing me of something (which I didn't understand :))


Well, I can't really accuse you of anything.
Yesterday I had a beer, and I see your post...
I thought, what the heck – the administration is creating a guide to cheating, opening a thread to discuss this guide, suggesting something to change/improve/add, and then you appear and say:
"Let's make life easier for tournament participants, because they are poor and come up with all sorts of workarounds"...
So I took it personally, and here's how:
- I immediately realized that this was "for prestige":D
- I was surprised by the cheapness of the method you chose to gain prestige – you referred to my post, but you could also refer to practically any other post in these two threads and say (paraphrasing "Let's make life easier..." as I perceived it yesterday) – "Ugh, what is this malicious cheater doing among us, ordinary cheaters?":D :D :D

At first, I suddenly felt sorry for my post on "intelligence gathering," but now I don't really care, so, I repeat, no accusations.

Oh, I'm also glad that you are a moderator:smile12:
When I grow up, I will definitely become a moderator:smile33:

Regarding the development of the "guide" topic and cheating... I had an idea, what if we post here methods of cheating that make life as difficult as possible for tournament organizers, and listen to them, the organizers, about how they would detect such a situation in real combat/tournament conditions? Because I have some ideas....

Regarding that very type of tournament....
In fact, I see two ways to organize them so far:

1. A truly "free" tournament, the results of which would not affect "reputation" and would not be immortalized on the site... In other words, people will play to
a) get pleasure from the game;
b) so that everyone for some time (during the tournament) sees that they are presenting themselves as "fair players," which, in turn, is a kind of temporary "reputation"... i.e., the issue of motivation is not overlooked....

2. A rating blitz, tightly compressed in terms of time: you can announce in advance that at a certain time the starting save will be uploaded and on the same day the final version will be accepted from the participant. If there are, say, 3-4 stages, then all sorts of "lucky-unlucky" factors will be leveled out....

But is it really needed by anyone?
(Inquisitor probably also immediately understood that I wrote all this for prestige and bragging:D :D :D)
Истинно говорю вам: 21 декабря 2012 года Земля налетит на небесную ось!

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Offline Alex_R
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#19
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Vanechka;111164
Regarding that particular type of tournament...
Actually, I see two ways to organize them:
1. A truly "non-commercial" tournament, the results of which would not affect "reputation" and would not be permanently recorded on the website... In other words, people would play to:
a) enjoy the game;
b) so that everyone, for a certain time (the duration of the tournament), can see that they are presenting themselves as "fair players," which, in turn, is a kind of temporary "reputation"... i.e., the issue of motivation is not overlooked...
Up to this paragraph, everything was logical and correctly written, but this part is already nonsense, IMHO.
Getting (online) enjoyment - when you agree with a decent opponent to have a duel - it's a normal friendly, but official game!
Getting (offline) enjoyment - sit down in the evening, set up a map and opponents - and go for it!!!
P.S. Then why go to the forum - create topics with a new tournament - impose the same rules on everyone - and the same map (starting save)?
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Offline Ley
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#20
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Alex_R;111169
Everything up to this paragraph was logical and correctly written, but this is already nonsense, in my opinion.
Getting (online) enjoyment - when you agree with a decent opponent to have a duel - a normal, friendly, but official game!
Getting (offline) enjoyment - sit down in the evening, set up a map and opponents - and go for it!!!
P.S. Then why go to the forum - create topics with a new tournament - impose the same rules on everyone - and the same map (starting save)?

2 Vanechka:

In principle, Alexander is right, because AmberSoler has already put forward the idea of tournaments "without rules", but don't you think that having rules is a reasonable approach to the game? And if you don't limit yourself in anything, you will never learn more than you already know. Personally, OFFLINE has given me a lot just because it has certain boundaries, and everyone knows their position and their knowledge in this game, but at the same time tries to improve it by participating in various OFFLINE tournaments. No one supported the previous idea, because everyone thought it was too much.
Why don't you do this: play cheat in ONLINE and agree with your opponent on the rules, and that's it, what's the problem? As you say: "we poor guys..." - you are not poor! And there is NO NEED TO UNDERESTIMATE YOUR KNOWLEDGE here ;), I doubt that I play better than anyone, but I can definitely tell you that if you just delve into the game, you will make anyone look bad :)
And in general, you can also create your own tournament and set the rules that you like, that suit you best, well, in short, what you like more :), attract attention, participants - I think that if the rules change radically, or at least not huge changes occur, but still - there will be something new - people will be drawn to it... And that's it.
"Единственное, что можно сказать с уверенностью об удаче - она изменит..."
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Offline AmberSoler
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#21
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Tournaments.
There's no need to argue about the rules of tournaments on the portal. We simply came up with our own rules and play by them. Anyone who wants to join is welcome. Those who don't want to, don't play.

This isn't the first time that online players have been puzzled by the question – why have rules at all? Everyone plays as they want, and that's it... And arguing about it is unlikely to be productive.

As for tournaments with different rules, no one is prohibiting them. There's no difficulty in organizing a blitz tournament (one day in real time per map) or a so-called "octagon" – fights with no rules. And there will definitely be those who want to participate in them. If there are those who want to organize them. :)

Cheating.
Everyone is against cheating in principle, but when it comes to cheating at the start, everyone claps their hands...
It's strange, to say the least....

Scouting the starting save is not cheating.

Offline play has one nuance that is of particular interest. It's like chess – you see the entire board in front of you, you know where all the pieces are. And the task is to defeat the opponent with the forces you have at the moment. This is why scouting is needed. This should not be called cheating in any case. It's simply a way to save time – nothing more. Even seeing the opponent's (AI) move is not cheating because we are not playing against the computer, but against each other. The computer is just a statistic. It can be completely omitted from the offline map.

Cheating is changing the balance of power in your favor, which is achieved through cheating artifacts, units, and other tricks. But you can get to know the map without scouting – just play it once, and that's it... So, please understand this.
What I've realized is that offline Heroes and the Heroes themselves (those that you play just for fun) are different games, with different rules and goals.
Absolutely true! :)

Added 6 minutes later
Post by maximula in the lectures topic:
-A similar situation exists with chests, Stones, and trees. If you don't have the Learning skill of rank 3 yet, you might not want to pick up that chest or visit the experience stone or experience tree.

A small note: the experience tree always gives a standard amount of XP, equal to the difference between the hero's current level and the next. And this does not depend on whether the hero has the secondary skill Learning.
Сначала было слово...
FizMiG v.2.0 *** Очередное обновление справочника! *** http://vk.com/fizmig

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Offline Kyle
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#23
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AmberSoler;111198
A small note: the experience tree always provides a standard amount of XP, equal to the difference between the hero's current level and the next level. And this does not depend on whether the hero has the secondary skill "Learning".
Thank you,
Your comment has already been taken into account. ;)

Кто состоянием своим доволен, тому жить весело. (с)Алекса́ндр Васи́льевич Суво́ров
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Offline vbn
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#31
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By the way, the goal of the game is to defeat the enemy. And when you submit the final save file, in which cheats were used, the result table will display "Cheater". And that's when everything will become clear!
Клан Homo homini

Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Charity never faileth...
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Offline VDV_forever
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#34
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Dear forum members, you should remember that this thread is for discussing lectures!

Discussing cheating in any form does not benefit the author of such a post!
I emphasize that I am referring to CHEATING, not for the purpose of reconnaissance!
Those who do not understand what they are writing and cannot distinguish between good and bad, as well as how to recognize cheating, I advise not to tempt fate and remember that the people who play in tournaments are 99% NOT CHEATERS, and the judges are not beginners!

User Vanechka, with his post, deprived himself of the opportunity to participate in the 8th stage of the Kanigam tournament.:smile10:

P.S. The rules are the same for everyone!

Sincerely, VDV_forever
Единый справочник по Героям Меча и Магии

ТУРНИРЫ ПО ГЕРОЯМ 1!:smile13:
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Offline Qwerty
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#51
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Well, good day to you!

First, let's clarify one thing: who is this for? The answer: EXCLUSIVELY for beginners. Because experienced players have known all this for a long time. And for them, it's all so "self-evident" that they often don't even talk about it, but do it automatically. We don't often think about "How do we breathe?" or "How do we walk?" ...

Introduction. "The beginning of the hero's journey..."
So, you are, of course, a good player in the third installment of the Heroes series. A real player, that is. You easily defeat the computer opponents. And when you play with your friends (who are also quite good players), you win very often.
And then you find a website where people play Heroes. You think, "I'll show them what I'm made of. They'll all see how great I am at Heroes."
And then comes the first day of the tournament. Hooray!
They give you a save file and a map. Why a map if there's a save file to play from – it's unclear. Indeed, these are some strange people.
And also: they gave almost a month to complete the Walkthrough – apparently, these people don't know how to play.
But it doesn't take long if you know what you're doing, right? In a couple of evenings, all the enemies are defeated, the save file is sent to the organizers, and there's a long wait for the other slowpokes to finally complete the map.
And then, the day of triumph arrives! Now they will announce the results...
What's this? Third from the bottom? And the first result is three times faster... But that's impossible!

But it is possible.

Part 1.
The basics of the gameplay.

To be continued...

Орден Феникса – харизматический :) лидер
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Offline Kyle
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#52
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to Qwerty: I've already added it... to the very first lecture... ;)

Кто состоянием своим доволен, тому жить весело. (с)Алекса́ндр Васи́льевич Суво́ров
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Offline Qwerty
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#53
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Part 1. The basics of the gameplay. First, you need to read the rules. And also save them along with the save file. And reread them from time to time. If some points are not quite clear, write a personal message to the tournament organizer. Second, you need to open the map (specifically the map) in the editor and carefully study it. This has already been discussed. Third, you need to open the save file and also carefully study it. Remember, without reconnaissance, there will be no good results! And now, another extremely important aspect. FORGET about how you played up to this moment. A scheme like "in the first week, I will build a town hall, in the second, I will try to build a capitol, and then I will build troops and it will be easier" does not work on the vast majority of maps! And what does work, you ask? The "here and now" approach works, that is, a specific game on a specific map. There are, of course, many options, but you can try to mention some of them. -) playing for different types of joining. Depending on the conditions for joining, you may need: an army, hero upgrade features, gold. Accordingly, we build the game around this. -) playing to acquire key spells. You may need: wisdom, a school of magic, an army to obtain the spell (capturing resources to build a guild, capturing a utopia with a book of the corresponding magic, breaking through the guard of an artifact or Pandora, etc.). -) rush. A rapid run across the map without being distracted by details. You need heroes with an army or with magic. Of course, there are many other cases. Part 2. Well-known truths. To be continued...

Орден Феникса – харизматический :) лидер
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Offline Qwerty
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#54
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Part 2. Well-known truths.

Remember how many beautiful victories were achieved with the help of a single, well-developed hero-tank with a large army, magic, and everything else? How you spent two months building up your strength, and then how you swept across the map and defeated everyone with that hero?
Well, all of that is not suitable for the vast majority of offline maps with the goal of speedrunning.
What is suitable is the following:
-) Accurate calculation of the necessary forces (army, magic, hero development) to solve a specific task. This means: if, for example, there are three opponents in different corners of the map, you need to think about whether it is possible to divide the forces into three parts and go to conquer. And it doesn't matter if, as a result, only 1 serpent remains from a magnificent army - the task of speedrunning will be solved!
-) Building chains and transferring armies. The technique of transferring an army from one hero to another is one of the most frequently used in offline (and, by the way, also in online) games. Calculating the optimal chain is not that difficult, and the results of using this technique will pleasantly surprise you!
-) TURN MANAGEMENT!!! You must ALWAYS remember this aspect of the game! And this applies not only to tournament games, but also to offline games. Always remember that starting with a speed of 11, the movement speed of the slowest creature does not increase. Don't carry slow units unnecessarily or create chains. Remember about the penalties on "difficult" terrain; often, on "native" terrain, a slow unit moves further than a fast unit for which this terrain is "foreign".
-) Using magic and calculating mana. I recommend paying attention to the "mana vortex" building in the black dragon castle. There is also the "wall of knowledge" for the titans. I have no doubt about your ability to fight, but remember about spells such as "forgetfulness," "force field," and "wall of fire." The effectiveness of town portal, flight, and teleport, I believe, is already very well known to everyone.
-) Remember that you can dig up any unoccupied hero! The excavation mechanism is quite simple, and there are also specialized "helpers." Digging up, for example, Cilia, can greatly simplify the game on some maps. Digging up a hero with literacy and passing on the necessary spell to everyone who needs it is an interesting technique! For example, Alamar or Tan...
-) Fewer templates - more "positional play." Playing "based on general considerations" is not always good. You were told that "on the last day of the week, it is always better to build a building for hiring creatures," but it is quite possible that it would be better to do something completely different. And in general, building your own castle is not necessary on all maps...

Of course, all these notes will only be useful to a few and for not too long - soon achievements and a different level of understanding of offline gameplay will come.
I have only written what "lies on the surface" - reach the depths!

Qwerty, 09.10.2007, 14:08 - 16:08.

Орден Феникса – харизматический :) лидер
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Offline Vanechka
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#55
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(+5 kopecks)
...and it would also be good to include a link to the hero calculator and a description of hero stats at the start in the lectures - specialty, spells, movement points...

Added after 12 minutes
...and even better - add such a point to the OFF rules + factions:

If you are new here - recommended links:
allowed Automators in the tournament and their description (this already exists);
Lectures;
Physics of the Heroes world
Истинно говорю вам: 21 декабря 2012 года Земля налетит на небесную ось!

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Offline Kyle
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#56
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to Qwerty: Your work has been added to the first post of the lecture series.

to Vanechka: Thank you for your suggestion. I have already taken it into account.

Кто состоянием своим доволен, тому жить весело. (с)Алекса́ндр Васи́льевич Суво́ров
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